Decision! Colt M1911A1 or USP .45??
- Thread starter lionken07
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Who knows, the world might be a more colorful place with more taciturn HK owners running about muttering about "compromise." They could be the "Gimlis" of the shooting scene.
Coltdriver
Member
Well you have certainly touched off religion with your question
I own both a Colt 1911 and an H&K USP Compact .45
I have put thousands of rounds through both.
The H&K is my home defense gun for a couple of simple reasons.
It can be picked up and fired just like a revolver. Just point and shoot. My wife can shoot it without having to remember anything except point and pull the trigger.
On the 1911 you have to decide if you will keep it cocked and locked. Then you have to fumble with a safety. Or you might want to keep a round in the chamber with the hammer down, then you have to cock it. Or you may want to leave the chamber empty, then you have to rack the slide to load it. All of these things are confusing late at night when you may be under stress too.
By comparison to the H&K, the 1911 is a dinasoar. It is, to be certain, a great dinasoar. But it has not changed much, if at all, since 1911. Oh sure, details like metals and of course you can spend a fortune on one making it a target gun or a "tactical" gun. But for sheer utility, the H&K spits out the potent .45 round accurately and reliably.
I don't think reliability is an issue here. Its ergonomics. Do get an H&K in your hand to see if it fits you.
And, as for cleaning, the H&K is utter simplicity.
After you get your H&K, make your next .45 a 1911. They are a lot of fun and they are relatively easy to detail strip and perform upgrades on (within your skillset of course).
But for what you describe, get an H&K.
I own both a Colt 1911 and an H&K USP Compact .45
I have put thousands of rounds through both.
The H&K is my home defense gun for a couple of simple reasons.
It can be picked up and fired just like a revolver. Just point and shoot. My wife can shoot it without having to remember anything except point and pull the trigger.
On the 1911 you have to decide if you will keep it cocked and locked. Then you have to fumble with a safety. Or you might want to keep a round in the chamber with the hammer down, then you have to cock it. Or you may want to leave the chamber empty, then you have to rack the slide to load it. All of these things are confusing late at night when you may be under stress too.
By comparison to the H&K, the 1911 is a dinasoar. It is, to be certain, a great dinasoar. But it has not changed much, if at all, since 1911. Oh sure, details like metals and of course you can spend a fortune on one making it a target gun or a "tactical" gun. But for sheer utility, the H&K spits out the potent .45 round accurately and reliably.
I don't think reliability is an issue here. Its ergonomics. Do get an H&K in your hand to see if it fits you.
And, as for cleaning, the H&K is utter simplicity.
After you get your H&K, make your next .45 a 1911. They are a lot of fun and they are relatively easy to detail strip and perform upgrades on (within your skillset of course).
But for what you describe, get an H&K.
Ken,
I'm in kind of the same boat you are. After doing lots of research, visiting all kinds of forums, and spending all kinds of time thinking about it, I have this to say - don't buy either one till you shoot both. I really like the HK, but wasn't such a fan after I shot it. I didn't care much for the checkered front strap or the grip shape. I then shot the most basic 1911, and loved the way it felt. The HK was a nice pistol, but not right for me. Shoot both, then buy. Both are excellent handguns, but they both suck if they don't fit you.
I'm in kind of the same boat you are. After doing lots of research, visiting all kinds of forums, and spending all kinds of time thinking about it, I have this to say - don't buy either one till you shoot both. I really like the HK, but wasn't such a fan after I shot it. I didn't care much for the checkered front strap or the grip shape. I then shot the most basic 1911, and loved the way it felt. The HK was a nice pistol, but not right for me. Shoot both, then buy. Both are excellent handguns, but they both suck if they don't fit you.
I like .45's, and have the full-size USP .45 and several Colt 1911's. I like both, and wouldn't sell them.
Each has strengths and weaknesses, as mentioned previously in this thread, and the choice of one or the other depends mainly on type of use envisioned for the gun. The original poster said something about having the gun "at home", and I note that he lives in New York City. So I'll assume he won't be carrying it concealed, and may use it for home defense and the occasional range visit. I gather he is not competing in IDPA, etc.
I think the all steel, full size Colt 1911 design is best for accurate use at the range, because of the gun's weight and great trigger. If you want the smallest groups you can shoot, it is easier with the 1911. It is also perfectly good for home defense, for similar reasons. But the gun is challenging to carry concealed because of its weight and barrel length. Some do, but they are diehards.
The H&K USP .45 is lighter weight and holds a few more rounds than the 1911, but has an average trigger and is difficult (for me, at least) to shoot as accurately as the 1911. I have shot both at the range together in the same session, and am pretty sure of this statement. But it is a reliable gun that feeds anything, and for self defense at short range it is perfectly adequate. So I tend to use the USP for home defense and occasional wintertime carry, when my coat will hide a big bump. I trust the USP to work every time, which is comforting. And the sight of it is intimidating enough that you may not need to shoot at all.
Each has strengths and weaknesses, as mentioned previously in this thread, and the choice of one or the other depends mainly on type of use envisioned for the gun. The original poster said something about having the gun "at home", and I note that he lives in New York City. So I'll assume he won't be carrying it concealed, and may use it for home defense and the occasional range visit. I gather he is not competing in IDPA, etc.
I think the all steel, full size Colt 1911 design is best for accurate use at the range, because of the gun's weight and great trigger. If you want the smallest groups you can shoot, it is easier with the 1911. It is also perfectly good for home defense, for similar reasons. But the gun is challenging to carry concealed because of its weight and barrel length. Some do, but they are diehards.
The H&K USP .45 is lighter weight and holds a few more rounds than the 1911, but has an average trigger and is difficult (for me, at least) to shoot as accurately as the 1911. I have shot both at the range together in the same session, and am pretty sure of this statement. But it is a reliable gun that feeds anything, and for self defense at short range it is perfectly adequate. So I tend to use the USP for home defense and occasional wintertime carry, when my coat will hide a big bump. I trust the USP to work every time, which is comforting. And the sight of it is intimidating enough that you may not need to shoot at all.
Many thanks to everyone who replied to this thread. But somehow you all made it more confusing to me...trying both guns will be hard here in the city of NY. You either have to buy it first or ask someone you know to let you shoot it, but that's beyond the point...
anyone in the city willing me let me try theirs?
more info on this issue will be helpful I guess...
Thanks again everyone
...trying both guns will be hard here in the city of NY. You either have to buy it first or ask someone you know to let you shoot it, but that's beyond the point...anyone in the city willing me let me try theirs?
more info on this issue will be helpful I guess...
Thanks again everyone
Why is everyone knocking usp trigger? Mine is smooth in double action, and actually so light in single action as to cause me some uneasiness. Maybe I just got a good one. I would not feel unarmed carrying either, but I've been tinkering with the 1911 for thirty five years. If you don't know what you are doing , get the HK, it is already ready to go. Bear in mind the US military has not bought a 1911 since 1945. The only 45's they have bought in the last 58 yrs have been HK. That ought to mean something.
It means that the 1911A1 is such an excellent and rugged design, the Marine Corps is still making front-line pistols for MEU/SOC off of the frames they acquired generations ago. I have also read that the Mark 23 SOCOM is not a very popular pistol, speaking of big and heavy. . . .
A polymer or alloy framed 1911 is no more difficult to carry concealed than any other pistol.
Threads that make you go SHEESH!
Stevie-Ray
Member
I also have the good fortune to own both. When I bought my USPc, it was going to be my carry gun, as I had recently aquired a CPL. $759 later the USPc was with me at the range, and it was everything I had hoped for. Everybody is right about the dependability, it has swallowed and spit out everything I've put through it. If it has one fault it is with recoil with good personal defense cartridges such as 230 gr Hydra-shoks. By no means unpleasant, but it reminds you what is in your hand.
Alas, the USPc turned out to be everything for me except compact. It's just not small enough for me to carry comfortably. Having and loving a Colt Mark IV was reason enough for me to start looking for a smaller version. The Kimber Ultra CDP II was just the ticket. It's tiny size was perfect for concealment and it's weight was only 25 oz. Hmmmm.........I wondered about the recoil issue with the H&K, surely this little thing was gonna be worse. Turns out, no, it's not. The little Kimber recoils less than my USPc. Evidently the 1911 design is just best for me. Strange too, because I loved the way the H&K felt in my hand, and seemed to "point" better than the Sig P220 that was vying for my attention at the same time.
The Kimber was almost $200 more than the H&K, but Kimber makes steel guns and different size configurations much cheaper to put them on par with the H&Ks. And you won't have to change anything with a Kimber. It's worth a look.
I believe my H&K will have a laser added to it (I've always wanted one) and be relegated to home defense. I know I'll never sell it, because even though it's job has changed, I like it too much to ever part with it.
Alas, the USPc turned out to be everything for me except compact. It's just not small enough for me to carry comfortably. Having and loving a Colt Mark IV was reason enough for me to start looking for a smaller version. The Kimber Ultra CDP II was just the ticket. It's tiny size was perfect for concealment and it's weight was only 25 oz. Hmmmm.........I wondered about the recoil issue with the H&K, surely this little thing was gonna be worse. Turns out, no, it's not. The little Kimber recoils less than my USPc. Evidently the 1911 design is just best for me. Strange too, because I loved the way the H&K felt in my hand, and seemed to "point" better than the Sig P220 that was vying for my attention at the same time.
The Kimber was almost $200 more than the H&K, but Kimber makes steel guns and different size configurations much cheaper to put them on par with the H&Ks. And you won't have to change anything with a Kimber. It's worth a look.
I believe my H&K will have a laser added to it (I've always wanted one) and be relegated to home defense. I know I'll never sell it, because even though it's job has changed, I like it too much to ever part with it.
I have rented USP's a couple different times, and was unimpressed both times. If you like DA autos I'd go with a S&W or a Sig 220 before the USP.
As for 1911's, I've bought new four late production(made after 1990) Colts - and they have all been reliable enough for defensive use out of the box.
If you get a new fullsize Colt .45 auto I expect it will run quite reliably for you. In New York though, you may have to get a pistol with an integral lock? That would limit you to Springfields.
As for 1911's, I've bought new four late production(made after 1990) Colts - and they have all been reliable enough for defensive use out of the box.
If you get a new fullsize Colt .45 auto I expect it will run quite reliably for you. In New York though, you may have to get a pistol with an integral lock? That would limit you to Springfields.
rauchman
Member
Greetings all,
I have the USP45F. It is a somewhat big handgun. It, without a doubt, is easier to take down than a 1911. There a lot of complaints about the trigger on the USP. Yes, when new they are heavy, however, after 1000 rounds or so, they do smooth up a lot. I shoot this pistol more accurately in DA than any other in my inventory (Sig 226 &225, Beretta 92FS). It is a very accurate, soft shooting, reliable pistol. Sights come up easy and even though the bore axis may be relatively high, the gun's sights come right back after the shot. Don't get me wrong, I do think very highly of the 1911 (it may very well be my next pistol purchase), however I think for someone new to handguns, the USP is the way to go.
I have the USP45F. It is a somewhat big handgun. It, without a doubt, is easier to take down than a 1911. There a lot of complaints about the trigger on the USP. Yes, when new they are heavy, however, after 1000 rounds or so, they do smooth up a lot. I shoot this pistol more accurately in DA than any other in my inventory (Sig 226 &225, Beretta 92FS). It is a very accurate, soft shooting, reliable pistol. Sights come up easy and even though the bore axis may be relatively high, the gun's sights come right back after the shot. Don't get me wrong, I do think very highly of the 1911 (it may very well be my next pistol purchase), however I think for someone new to handguns, the USP is the way to go.
My goodness-did they somehow change the design of the mighty 1911 in the last couple of years? All this trouble to field strip it from what I'm hearing makes me wonder
That, and "if you buy brand X German wundergun and it doesn't work, just send it back and they will make it right". Is this not so on a standard Colt???
I have been working with 1911's for coming up on 35 years, and I don't have a problem field stripping them (remove mag, check chamber, depress recoil spring plug, turn barrel bushing, release tension on spring slowly, push slide back to disassembly notch, push slide stop out, pull slide off frame, remove barrel bushing, remove barrel). My wife, who has no experience with firearms, learned how to completely disassemble with a screw driver and a punch, clean and reassemble in under one hour. Her back ground is sales, and no technical background what so ever. The problems with the 1911 are so over blabbed that you would think they are useful paper weights at best. Quit trying to be a garage gun smith and shoot the thing. You will greatly and often.
That, and "if you buy brand X German wundergun and it doesn't work, just send it back and they will make it right". Is this not so on a standard Colt???
I have been working with 1911's for coming up on 35 years, and I don't have a problem field stripping them (remove mag, check chamber, depress recoil spring plug, turn barrel bushing, release tension on spring slowly, push slide back to disassembly notch, push slide stop out, pull slide off frame, remove barrel bushing, remove barrel). My wife, who has no experience with firearms, learned how to completely disassemble with a screw driver and a punch, clean and reassemble in under one hour. Her back ground is sales, and no technical background what so ever. The problems with the 1911 are so over blabbed that you would think they are useful paper weights at best. Quit trying to be a garage gun smith and shoot the thing. You will
greatly and often.Carlos Cabeza
Member
To put it bluntly, TUPPERWARE IS FOR LEFTOVERS ! .......
Preacherman
Member
Something we may be losing sight of here... WEIGHT. I have shot many 1911's, and bet my life on one (the hard way) for several years. It never failed me. However, at the end of a long day, it was a pain in the posterior (or at least a proximate region! ) to have that 40-oz. weight dragging at the back of my hip... The huge advantage of polymer pistols, IMHO, is not their superior functionality (a good 1911 is perfectly functional), or their ergonomics, but their ease of carry for long periods. That's why my usual carry pistol is a Glock: ultra-reliable (I've only had three malfunctions in all my Glocks put together, in something over 100,000 rounds fired through them: all were ammo-related, not the gun's fault), light to carry, and perfectly manageable with the right training and practice. I still love 1911's, and own them, but don't carry them any more... and my back thanks me for that every day! I've never owned a USP, but I suspect it must be at least a third lighter than the average 1911: so if your pistol is being purchased for carry purposes, that's got to be a major factor in the decision-making process.
Yes, I know there are good lightweight 1911-type designs out there: but in my experience, they tend to kick harder, be less reliable, and wear faster than the full-weight steel guns. I've never yet seen an aluminum-frame 1911 design that wasn't in need of some serious adjustment and tuning-up after about 25,000 rounds. (This is derived from comments from many gunsmiths, instructors, and my own experience.) On the other hand, a friend has a G21 with well over 100,000 rounds through it, and apart from spring replacements at regular intervals, it's still chugging along merrily...
) to have that 40-oz. weight dragging at the back of my hip... The huge advantage of polymer pistols, IMHO, is not their superior functionality (a good 1911 is perfectly functional), or their ergonomics, but their ease of carry for long periods. That's why my usual carry pistol is a Glock: ultra-reliable (I've only had three malfunctions in all my Glocks put together, in something over 100,000 rounds fired through them: all were ammo-related, not the gun's fault), light to carry, and perfectly manageable with the right training and practice. I still love 1911's, and own them, but don't carry them any more... and my back thanks me for that every day! I've never owned a USP, but I suspect it must be at least a third lighter than the average 1911: so if your pistol is being purchased for carry purposes, that's got to be a major factor in the decision-making process.Yes, I know there are good lightweight 1911-type designs out there: but in my experience, they tend to kick harder, be less reliable, and wear faster than the full-weight steel guns. I've never yet seen an aluminum-frame 1911 design that wasn't in need of some serious adjustment and tuning-up after about 25,000 rounds. (This is derived from comments from many gunsmiths, instructors, and my own experience.) On the other hand, a friend has a G21 with well over 100,000 rounds through it, and apart from spring replacements at regular intervals, it's still chugging along merrily...
Preacherman: But this fellow is looking for a house gun. So weight won't matter. In fact, I'd argue that the more weight the better because it will recoil less. Given where he lives, he probably can't get a CCW permit. But if he does, there's lots of 1911s around with aluminum frames.
I've got two HK USP compacts, one in .40 and one in 45. I've got 6 1911s of one variety or another.
The HKs have certainly been reliable and reasonably accurate. Both have significantly more muzzle rise than my Kimber Compact (let alone my full size Kimber). The SA triggers on the HK are ok at best. The DA triggers just plain suck -- if you pull them slowly they get very heavy towards the end of the travel. Yuck. I'm not a particular fan of the HK's magazine release. The HKs thumb safety is blockly and poorly contoured for using a high-thumb hold. The light rail is nice if I decide to spend the money for a weapon-mounted light (sheesh they're pricey, however).
For me, the 1911s just fit my hand better. The triggers are better out of the box and any good gunsmith can make a 1911 trigger very nice for short money. The 1911s manual safety works better for me than the HKs. Some of the 1911s have required a bit of fussing to get to where they are 100 percent reliable. But not all.
Choose what you like. Both are fine guns. My choice is the 1911.
I've got two HK USP compacts, one in .40 and one in 45. I've got 6 1911s of one variety or another.
The HKs have certainly been reliable and reasonably accurate. Both have significantly more muzzle rise than my Kimber Compact (let alone my full size Kimber). The SA triggers on the HK are ok at best. The DA triggers just plain suck -- if you pull them slowly they get very heavy towards the end of the travel. Yuck. I'm not a particular fan of the HK's magazine release. The HKs thumb safety is blockly and poorly contoured for using a high-thumb hold. The light rail is nice if I decide to spend the money for a weapon-mounted light (sheesh they're pricey, however).
For me, the 1911s just fit my hand better. The triggers are better out of the box and any good gunsmith can make a 1911 trigger very nice for short money. The 1911s manual safety works better for me than the HKs. Some of the 1911s have required a bit of fussing to get to where they are 100 percent reliable. But not all.
Choose what you like. Both are fine guns. My choice is the 1911.
New_comer
Member
This was what was asked:
Out of the box reliability: USP... It's also 45 Super compatible, if you're a sucker for powerful shots, just go ahead and blast some!
Ergonomics : It depends on your preferences, but I prefer DA/SA/decocker (guess I've gotten so used to it). I have a pair of small /medium-sized hands (7" tip to wrist) but I could operate the USP mag release much much faster than I could a 1911. And I never use the slide lock. Also with drop safety
Ease in maintenance : Hmmm, if it's the weapon's ability to function despite being choked with house dusts/dead insects/lint/gross neglect, then it must be the USP : see www.streetpro.com/usp for torture tests.
Better gun over all? For me, the USP, if we discount looks.
I'd have to admit the Colt1911 is devilishly more handsome.
Out of the box reliability: USP... It's also 45 Super compatible, if you're a sucker for powerful shots, just go ahead and blast some!
Ergonomics : It depends on your preferences, but I prefer DA/SA/decocker (guess I've gotten so used to it). I have a pair of small /medium-sized hands (7" tip to wrist) but I could operate the USP mag release much much faster than I could a 1911. And I never use the slide lock. Also with drop safety
Ease in maintenance : Hmmm, if it's the weapon's ability to function despite being choked with house dusts/dead insects/lint/gross neglect, then it must be the USP : see www.streetpro.com/usp for torture tests.
Better gun over all? For me, the USP, if we discount looks.
I'd have to admit the Colt1911 is devilishly more handsome.
DeltaElite
Member
1911, I don't care for the USP series.
NewShooter78
Member
But what would you think if the USP series came in a 10mm Delta?
DeltaElite
Member
Hmmmmmmmm, I would still probably prefer the 1911 style, but I sure would buy an USP if they upgraded to 10mm.
If you have not fired a handgun before, a 45 ACP may not be the best choice. I know plenty of people who fired less than a box of cartridges (usually about 5) and sold the gun and remaining cartridges. Either gun is OK but the Colt 45 Auto would be my choice out of the two.
H
Handy
Guest
I think what BigG is talking about is painful recoil. If that is a factor, it's another vote for the USPF. The recoil reduction device is so good that it's more like shooting a 9mm.
BerettaNut92
Member
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Lionken, I like both. I know this isn't the answer you're looking for, but I recommend buying both if your pocketbook will allow, and training and shooting with both.
Sell the one that you don't shoot as well, and buy more magazines and ammo and training with the leftovers.
Sell the one that you don't shoot as well, and buy more magazines and ammo and training with the leftovers.
That's not been my experience. First, a full-size steel 1911 is a big heavy gun. I don't perceive it to have a lot of recoil. It is more than a Glock 17, but it isn't sharp. I haven't shot the USPF. My USPcs (in both .40 and .45) have significant muzzle flip. Much more than my steel Kimber Compact (let alone full-size 1911).
cratz2
Member
All of the current model Colts I've handled and shot have been excellent. I'm no big fan of MIM but then, who really is? If it does it's job, then I'm happy.
The USP is just too big for my hands. I'm 5'7", maybe 5'8" when I'm feeling exceptionally proud. And the USP grip is just not for me. My Taurus PT (Beretta design) and double stack CZs in 40S&W fit just fine - the USP is a big gun. The full size USP and the C version seem like they have the same size grip to me. of course, I like the think 1911 grip.
For reliablilty, while I have had very good luck with 1911s, I might have to give a slight advantage to the USP. My new rollmark Colt never failed but if you put 1,000 rounds through 100 of each the Colt and the UPS, I'd bet there would be fewer failures with the USP.
I'd get the Colt. But would suggest that you handle both of them and preferably shoot both of them.
On a side note, I think the CZ75s are the best values in new handguns right now. In 9mm or 40S&W. The CZ97 is a bit big for me. I hate it when people suggest choices that aren't listed but for considerably less than either the Colt or the USP, you can get a gun with an excellent finish, good trigger nearly 100% reliability out of the box and an excellent warranty.
The USP is just too big for my hands. I'm 5'7", maybe 5'8" when I'm feeling exceptionally proud.
And the USP grip is just not for me. My Taurus PT (Beretta design) and double stack CZs in 40S&W fit just fine - the USP is a big gun. The full size USP and the C version seem like they have the same size grip to me. of course, I like the think 1911 grip.For reliablilty, while I have had very good luck with 1911s, I might have to give a slight advantage to the USP. My new rollmark Colt never failed but if you put 1,000 rounds through 100 of each the Colt and the UPS, I'd bet there would be fewer failures with the USP.
I'd get the Colt. But would suggest that you handle both of them and preferably shoot both of them.
On a side note, I think the CZ75s are the best values in new handguns right now. In 9mm or 40S&W. The CZ97 is a bit big for me. I hate it when people suggest choices that aren't listed but for considerably less than either the Colt or the USP, you can get a gun with an excellent finish, good trigger nearly 100% reliability out of the box and an excellent warranty.
H
Handy
Guest
M1911,
The USPc models don't have the recoil reduction system. It's only found in the Fullsize models.
The USPc models don't have the recoil reduction system. It's only found in the Fullsize models.
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