Decision on a rifle

[wiiawiwb]

I started out looking to get a lightweight woods rifle. More for hiking/backpacking rather than hunting and distance will always be less then 100 yds as I hike in areas of thick forest.

My initial thought was to get Kimber Adirondack in .308. It is a bolt action and that could work but I think I'd rather have a lever-action rifle. Then I thought about a lever gun in 44 mag. The Winchester 1892 Large Loop looked interesting especially because it only weighs 6 lbs and I could reload that round. Next, I considered a .454 carbine because I have a Ruger SRH in .454 Casull/.45 Colt. I could also reload those rounds and the 454 would be a more penetrating round. Not sure if it is as punishing in a rifle as it is in a handgun. If so, I'm not interested.

Winchester also makes a Model 94 Takedown in 30-30 Win, 38-55, or 450 Marlin. It is less than 7 lbs and would pack in two into my backpack but I have no experience with any of those rounds and not crazy about reloading rifle rounds.

I'm finding myself drifting around as I try to narrow down what makes sense for me. I don't want a nuclear round that is no fun to shoot. I'm guessing that means to forget a .45-70. I do want something that is lightweight, shorter barrel, and easy to reload which leads me toward a 44 mag or 454 casull carbine.

As you can see, I am all over the map here and sure would appreciate some direction with this. Part of the problem is I have no experience with rifles except for my target .22LR CZ 452 and that isn't helping me out with decision at all.

 

[d2wing]

Hard to go wrong with a Winchester 94 in 30-30. More range and power than a pistol cartridge, low recoil and a great stalking gun. I won't part with mine, ever.

 

[witchhunter]

Everyone needs a 30/30. Very versatile round, low recoil, deer killer to 200 yards easy. Winchesters are notoriously easy to carry, short and well balanced.

 

[Orcon]

One couldn't go wrong with a .444 Marlin. I, for one, hate the straight grip lever guns and this is available with a 336 style grip.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/444Marlin.htm

 

[AKElroy]

Another vote for the .30-30. I've shot lots of deer and hogs with it, and can't remember a single runoff when I did my part. Longest was just shy of 200 yards, 140lb whitetail staggered and dropped right there.

This is going to sound crazy and irresponsible, but the .30-30 just sounds right. When hunting, I don't always get ears on when taking game. I have several rifles (.243, .308, .270, .30/06, 7mm mag), and when hunting I've taken game with all of them sans hearing protection on occasion. They are all so loud, that my brain tends to block out the shot. I really don't recall hearing them at all. But the .30-30 is different; I hear all of it as it echoes for what seams like miles. To me it is a great sound,until the ringing starts. (please no lectures; I get my ears on 99% of the time).

 

[taliv]

i know it's not what you're thinking, but...

you can get an AR close to 5 lbs, which is super light. you can pop the pins to separate the upper and lower and it stows in a very small pack. and most importantly, you can carry a LOT of 223rem ammo for plinking when hiking or whatever. inside 100 yards and not hunting, you're at no disadvantage with the smaller caliber. and the ammo is cheap and easy to reload

 

[AKElroy]

i know it's not what you're thinking, but...

you can get an AR close to 5 lbs, which is super light. you can pop the pins to separate the upper and lower and it stows in a very small pack. and most importantly, you can carry a LOT of 223rem ammo for plinking when hiking or whatever. inside 100 yards and not hunting, you're at no disadvantage with the smaller caliber. and the ammo is cheap and easy to reload

Good points.

 

[wiiawiwb]

Great suggestions. I've looked at the velocity difference between a 30-30 and 44 mag and the 30-30 is about 10% greater at the muzzle. Above, I said my shooting would be at a distance no greater than within 100 yards. Probably 50 yards max.

I live in a communist state so an AR-15 is a no no unless it has the new compliant stock (n pistol grip) . Who offers an stock AR-15 in the 5lb-6.5lb range that would likely come in a compliant stock? Also, in a thickly wooded environment isn't the .223 round more likely to get deflected by small branches than would heavier rounds like 444 Marlin, 44 mag or 45-70?

Is the recoil on a 45-70 significant?

 

[Leanwolf]

As you said you prefer a lever action, as others said, the old tried and true .30-30 Win. is mighty hard to beat, considering you are not going to be hunting. Even if you were, millions of deer, elk, Black bears, etc., have fallen to that venerable cartridge.

If you do not want a rifle cartridge and don't want heavy recoil, you might look into buying a lever action .357 Magnum. Easy and cheap to reload, light recoil, and not much out in the woods you can't handle with the .357.

Just my thoughts on your post.

Good luck.

L.W.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Is the recoil on a 45-70 significant?

It can be......

Remington Model 7s are light and handy, Winchester M70 Rangers or Compacts are as well.

 

[dh1633pm]

I shoot the 45-70 a lot in a 1895G. What I like about it, is the ability to load it light or load it a little on the hot side. It does pack a punch if you load it hot. What about a lighter load at about 1200 FPS with a 300 grain lead bullet. Now the recoil becomes very manageable. This all depends on what you want to shoot. My guide gun is a little heavier compared to some other lever gun choices. I am not sure I would want a lighter 45-70. The 444 Marlin was a choice I looked at, but thought the 45-70 although a tad less powerful, was more versatile due to reloading options. The 1895G was bought with hazardous duty pay in 2003. It has functioned without fail since that time.

Other choices might be an 1892 style rifle in 45 Colt or even a Marlin. According to someone I know that works at the plant says that they have moved away from the Marlin machines that were antique when they got them and sabotaged by their former operators. So the quality is back. I have a Rossi M92 in 45 Colt, a caliber which you already shoot. I took it apart the day I purchased it. Polished all the internals, replaced all the springs, removed the safety (I mean didn't remove the safety), installed ghost rings, and had the shiny finish removed. Has a nice trigger now, smooth, and good balance. Couldn't find a Winchester or Marlin when I bought it. Without the work it wouldn't have been worth it.

There are so many choices. Everyone who has made a suggestion so far has made a good one.

 

[stubbicatt]

I closely read OP's post, and it sounds like he's looking for what we used to call a "woods bumming" rifle. Not for hunting per se, but for sniping targets of opportunity, like odd shaped rocks at a distance, or perhaps protection should the need arise. Something to serve as a companion for days in nature. Implicit in the post is that he reloads for 454, and would reload for whatever rifle he chooses, but seems to favor straight wall cartridges over bottleneck type rifle cartridges.

Of the choices OP mentioned, other than the tang safety on it, the Model 94 Winchester in 38-55 would be a good selection. It is an easy cartridge to reload for. One can load cast bullets at mild to moderate velocities for a low cost alternative, or one can load some really respectable rounds. Another alternative, and one which I would favor is an 1885 or the like chambered in 38-55.

Any of the pistol caliber rounds can make for a really fun alternative, and some of them, like the 357 magnum really wake up and shine in a rifle, where one can get nearly 2000 fps from a rifle length barrel, and, if one has a revolver chambered in the same cartridge, one can share ammunition between them.

Lastly, 45-70 in a single shot rifle is just a hoot to shoot. If one is afraid of recoil, one needn't fear this cartridge in a nice single shot rifle. If OP is a fan of the 1800s, loading the old Government cartridge with black powder is an experience which doesn't thump you too bad, and it opens up options such as a nice Trapdoor or maybe a Sharps. Even using Trapdoor level smokeless loads it is more of a shove than a thump.

 

[bannockburn]

I consider something like my Rossi Model 92 in .45 Colt to be a decent candidate for your woods rifle. Lightweight, compact, easy on the shoulder, very quick on target and overall a a rather handy kind of carbine to have with you while you're hiking.

 

[jmr40]

The Kimber will be about 1-3 lbs lighter with a scope on it than a lever action will weigh with no scope. Depending on which lever action you decide on. My Kimber is still under 6 lbs scoped, all of my Marlin 30-30's are the heaviest rifles I own. Even my lightest lever, a Winchester 94 is 6.75 lbs and is heavier than my 300 WSM bolt gun.

Despite the myth, all things being equal lever actions are the heaviest rifles made, bolt guns can be built the lightest of all actions.

If you are interested in nostalgia and aesthetics lever actions are the way to go. If you want performance, better prices, much better accuracy, less weight, and far better reliability one of the trim bolt guns is the answer. Kimber or NULA are the lightest at around 5 lbs and most expensive. There are lots of more moderately priced bolt guns right at 6 lbs that would weigh around 7 lbs scoped. There are darn few levers under 7 lbs naked and many are 8-9 lbs. None in center fire calibers under about 6.5.

A round such as 260, 6.5 Creedmore or 7-08 will recoil much less than 44 mag or 30-30 and be more effective at 50-100 yards than 44 or 30-30. Would also be effective at 500 yards on deer, at least 400 for elk. A 308 would have a bit more recoil, but very little more than 44mag or 30-30.

FWIW I own more lever guns than all other action types because I like them a lot. But when it comes time to hunt they stay home in favor of much better choices. Unless I'm just in a John Wayne kind of mood.

 

[AKElroy]

Great suggestions. I've looked at the velocity difference between a 30-30 and 44 mag and the 30-30 is about 10% greater at the muzzle. Above, I said my shooting would be at a distance no greater than within 100 yards. Probably 50 yards max.

I live in a communist state so an AR-15 is a no no unless it has the new compliant stock (n pistol grip) . Who offers an stock AR-15 in the 5lb-6.5lb range that would likely come in a compliant stock? Also, in a thickly wooded environment isn't the .223 round more likely to get deflected by small branches than would heavier rounds like 444 Marlin, 44 mag or 45-70?

Is the recoil on a 45-70 significant?

Oh friend---your 10% numbers are quite a bit off. You can expect 1900 ft lbs of energy (211% increase) and 2400 FPS (171% increase) from a typical .30-30 load; the .44 mag is less than half that at 900 ft lbs. @ 1400FPS. The .30/30 is literally twice the gun a .44 mag is with regard to muzzle energy.

Both will cleanly take whitetail at the distances you posted, but the .30-30 has a major edge in power. Since it shoots a much lighter bullet, it also has a flatter trajectory and a much better recoil to power ratio. The .44 mag will kick about the same due to heavier bullets, but delivers far less energy.

 

[eastbank]

i saw the slickest single shot, a ruger #3 in 30-40 krag that the owner resocked(ex job on the wood work) and a 1.5x4 leupold. i don,t think it weighted more than 6.5lbs and was short. it was not for sale or it would be here now. i have a very light browning low wall in .260 rem, but they have become collector rifles now and i don,t hunt it very much. eastbank.

 

[bscott29]

A 350 grain cast bullet with 15 grains of trailboss behind it in an 1895 gbl kicks like a .243 and beats a 44 mag all to hell.

 

[BudgetBucks1]

How about a Ruger 44 Carbine in 44 mag. Great for whitetail sized game within 100 yards. It is a super lightweight, handy rifle that should be easy to take on a hiking or backpacking trip and great for self defense should the need arise. My brother has one and I like it so much that I usually forget to give it back when I borrow it from him.

 

[dh1633pm]

My dad's woods gun is what BudgetBucks1 suggested. The Ruger 44 Carbine. He loves the rifle. Its almost always loaded at his house.

 

[Goosey]

... the .44 mag is less than half that at 900 ft lbs. @ 1400FPS. The .30/30 is literally twice the gun a .44 mag is with regard to muzzle energy.

In a revolver. In a carbine the .44 gains a lot of speed, like so...

180 gr, 2,150 ft/s = 1,847 ft lb
240 gr, 1,750 ft/s = 1,632 ft lb

Compared to .30-30...

150 gr, 2,250 ft/s = 1,686 ft lb
170 gr, 2,100 ft/s = 1,664 ft lb



But at 100 yards...

.44 Mag
180 gr, 1,473 ft/s = 867 ft lb
240 gr, 1,355 ft/s = 978 ft lb

.30-30
150 gr, 1,892 ft/s = 1,192 ft lb
170 gr, 1,788 ft/s = 1,207 ft lb

 

[Furncliff]

OP my needs are similar to yours, I chose a Marlin 1894c .357mag/.38 special. The 1894 can be had in the pistol calibers you mentioned, it's short, light and very handy. Accurate loads can be worked up, I use LIL-Gun and 158 Hornady xtp for velocity approaching 30-30 (see Buffalo Bore .357 magnum loads for velocity and energy charts). Easy to load down or switch to .38 spl.. I often use it when transitioning rimfire shooters to CF rifle. Best bet is an older pre Remington. Rumors are the Remingtons are getting better.

Lots of info including calibers offered here...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlin_Model_1894



The Skinner peep sights are an excellent addition.

 

[AKElroy]

In a revolver. In a carbine the .44 gains a lot of speed, like so...

180 gr, 2,150 ft/s = 1,847 ft lb
240 gr, 1,750 ft/s = 1,632 ft lb

Compared to .30-30...

150 gr, 2,250 ft/s = 1,686 ft lb
170 gr, 2,100 ft/s = 1,664 ft lb



But at 100 yards...

.44 Mag
180 gr, 1,473 ft/s = 867 ft lb
240 gr, 1,355 ft/s = 978 ft lb

.30-30
150 gr, 1,892 ft/s = 1,192 ft lb
170 gr, 1,788 ft/s = 1,207 ft lb

Yep -- my comparison was apples to oranges, so my numbers are not valid. However, it does demonstrate the .30-30 likely has twice the effective range.

 

[wiiawiwb]

Hey, it's easy to grab the wrong page. I've done it a million times.

It looks like the 30-30 and 44 mag are pretty close in power at 50 yards. Given that the 44 mag round would be far easier for me to reload, that eliminates the 30-30.

Even though I reload, the .444 is not an easy round to find if I need to buy some rounds in a pinch. That nixes it.

Looks like we're down to the 44 mag, 45-70, .223 (maybe), and 454. We're making progress! Now I have to determine if the 45-70 and 454 are more recoil than I'm looking for.

What is a more punishing round to shoot, the 45-70 or 454 carbine?

 

[Orcon]

45-70 can be comparable to 300 win mag in a 8 pound rifle, depends on the load though. Can't speak for the 454.

 

[AKElroy]

With such a wide variety of loads, the .45-70 will be all over the map. The 454 seems to be loaded hot regardless, so I'm betting it typically thumps harder, although I do not own either.