Declaration of Future Civil Disobedience?

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geekWithA.45

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So, NJ enacts a law concerning the future sales of handguns.

Why don't we enact a declaration of future civil disobedience?

I'm thinking a statement along the the lines of:


*The restrictions, regulations, and infringements of the Second Amendment have already gone too far.

*We will not tolerate them going any farther.

*We hearby declare that the People shall hold as contemptible, NULL and VOID any additional restrictions enacted from this day forward, and put legislators on notice that any such enactments shall be faced with massive, unilateral civil disobedience.


I'm gonna chew this one over, but thought I'd put it out there for comments.

Will the RKBA community support this sort of thing?
 
You guys should be protesting en masse now, not at the next bill signing. Correction, should have done it last year.

Never too late to start.:)

Think about what you are proposing. How many people are going to publicly state that they plan to break the law in your state in such a way as to risk becoming felons? Ten? twenty? That is not going to scare any legislators or deter them from passing the next bill.

You need to call every gun shop in every phone book you can get your hands on. Convince them to fight future legislation. Get contact names from them of area shooters and gun clubs. Call them. Convince them to help. Get two thousand people standing on the steps of the capitol while news cameras roll and then use that hell raising session as a platform to inform ignorant people about the hazards of a gun free society. Use it to start a groundswell of public opinion that will make more restrictive gun control an unacceptable political goal.

Anything less than that will make you look like wacos.
 
Support seems to be growing in part as evidenced by a lack of unmarked cars going by my house lately. Lendringer rules, by the way.
 
I'm certainly not disagreeing with Lendringser's Declaration on a philisophical level. I thought it rocked when he wrote it! It still does. I agree with his sentiments wholeheartedly.

I'm just pointing out that it is not going to stop legislators. It will even put off potential supporters of your cause. Not every gun owner wants to lose his home and his freedom. Not every gun owner thinks things are as bad as you do. Not every gun owner thinks they will take his shotgun. You need those guys, too.
 
Every gun owner might not think like we do, but that means that we will have to "convince" them that they too are in danger of loosing their rights. Once they can say, take away our hanguns, then what's to stop them from banning the owning of any firearm in a city or town? Most people cry from the mountain top when "authorities" want to curb their 1st Amendment rights, but when it comes to the 2nd a lot of people bend way to far.
 
You guys wanna win...easy..every gun owner in the State of NJ..on the same day...after notifying the press...parades with a 15 round magazine (or some other innocuous illegality)...give the cops your name address and phone number...demand to be arrested..

After arrest demand a jury trial.. no plea bargianing.....think about that one boys and girls...how about just 100,000 jury trials on the NJ court calenders...

Wanna bet that gets some ones attention, especially when there are physicians, lawyers, busnessmen etc at the bar of justice..

Call it..NJ hi cap mag day!

WildcivildisobedienceAlaska
 
fOUND YOU!!!!!!!!!!

Geek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There you are!!!!!!!!!!! Spreading hate and discontent!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get back in the box and don't escape again!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry folks. He seems to find a way out to the public every now and then. We will try to keep him contained......:neener:


People in this state are slowly looking around and noticing that tHese laws only effect the law abiding but they still are in the disbelief mode and can't believe that they would be lied too. Our automobile insurance is just as bad, even possibly worse than our gun laws and nobody is rallying to figh that! Just about everybody has a car!!!!

Gun owners in this state have a long way to go in order to wake up. We are throwing cold water on them and they are stirring, just not quick enough. WHY?:scrutiny:
 
geek, do you really think making threats of breaking the law (of which civil disobience counts) is really prudent? Do you really feel that such a 'declaration' is going to do anything politically or is it just your way of making yourself feel better in the wave of oppressive changes. If it is to make you feel better, then consider not committing to paper or public statement threats that involve breaking the law.

If you really think such threats are going to bring political change, I think you are wrong. Generally, people who make such threats tend to get relegated to the sidelines as being crazies or unrealistic fanatics and if you get viewed that way by those currently in power, then your words will not be given any real consideration. Your efforts will likely be given as much consideration as those folks lobbying for an extra terrestial (UFO) landing site or 'space port' out by Area 51, only they will be seen as harmless and you as a threat.
 
If you really think such threats are going to bring political change, I think you are wrong.
Sure, DoubleNaught.

That's why India is still being governed by the Brits ... and why it is still illegal for blacks to ride anywhere but the back of the bus.

pax

Freedom is, 'I won't.' -- Eric Frank Russell
 
Bear with me...

...as this is a near-perfect analogy.

You guys should be protesting en masse now,
Exactly!

When the Democrat-controlled legislature and our RINO governor determined that they were going to ram an income tax down the throats of us Tennesseans last year, the protests were frequent, reasoned, well-attended and LOUD! around the state capital in Nashville.

Only a concerted effort in the streets saved us from an unconstutional abrogation [the Tennessee state constitution specifically prohibits an income tax] by the govt. thieves.

Fortunately, the good citizens of The [still] Free Republic of Tennesse were rallied, in the main, by conservative talk-show hosts across the state. [thank you, Phil Valentine, Steve Gill, et. al.!] That was enough to overcome the huge expenditures of time, money and effort by state employees, the Tenn. Education Assoc., the AARP and every single TV station and newspaper of any size from the Mississippi to the Great Smoky Mts.

It's possible...but it ain't easy. Good luck...and don't expect help of any substance from any minor political parties. One of the icons of the Libertarian Party lives just fifteen miles south of Nashville. He was AWOL during the whole process.
 
Geek is part of a political action group trying to halt future gun control legislation. They have a website and are trying to get the New Jersey gun owners to actually participate in the political process. A rather tall order, judging by the lack of outrage over the bills that have been passed in the last couple of years in his state.

I assume he is contemplating putting this on the front page of that website. Assuming is usually bad, but I keep doing it anyway.

A declaration of civil disobedience on that site would be detrimental. They are trying to get people to register to the site, presumably to get their contact information and hopefully some support. A manifesto vowing to break the law will drive off a lot of potential allies.

Wildalaska has a good idea. But unless everbody joins in, you'll just have three guys who get arrested and lose their firearms.

If I am wrong about Geek's intent, I would like to know. But then, if I am wrong, how would such a declaration be used in a real world fashion? A petition sent to Congress? A bumper sticker that says "I ignore the law"? A website we could post to anonimously to voice agreement?

Zander tells us how to sway legislators. Unless the manifesto/declaration is on placards being waved by lots of angry voters with flaming torches in their other hand stomping around in the Capitol parking lot, it won't be effective.

It takes more than sentiment to sway legislators. It takes voters pounding on the doors and shaking fists.
 
Any action is better than no action. What a sight it would be if say there was a million gun owner march on D.C. That would scare the **** out of all those congresscritters.
 
You guys in NJ may end up with a much bigger choice/opportunity that any of the rest of us could imagine.
If they were to ban all the guns in NJ, and you had already resolved to not comply, then what would stop you from getting ahold of any illegal FA and DD weapons that the rest of us couldn't justify?
Just a thought.
 
"Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." - Demonax (Roman Philosopher) 150AD

"When men are pure, laws are useless; when men are corrupt, laws are broken." - Benjamin Disraeli
 
Wildalaska has a good idea. But unless everbody joins in, you'll just have three guys who get arrested and lose their firearms.

Wrong. "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church." Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the resistance of California parents when homeschooling was still illegal may have seemed like tragic and futile acts at the time, but all had an influence on national attitudes and even legislation. The determination of just a few individuals convinced of the rightness of their cause and willing to pay the ultimate price can have a tremendous impact on the rest of the sheeple.
 
But what can you do? How can anyone prevail against such pervasive social subjugation? The answer's been here all along. I learned it 36 years ago, on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington D.C., standing with Dr. Martin Luther King and two hundred thousand people. You simply ... disobey. Peaceably, yes. Respectfully, of course. Nonviolently, absolutely. But when told how to think or what to say or how to behave, we don't. We disobey social protocol that stifles and stigmatizes personal freedom. I learned the awesome power of disobedience from Dr. King ...who learned it from Gandhi, and Thoreau, and Jesus, and every other great man who led those in the right against those with the might.

Disobedience is in our DNA. We feel innate kinship with that disobedient spirit that tossed tea into Boston Harbor, that sent Thoreau to jail, that refused to sit in the back of the bus, that protested a war in Vietnam. In that same spirit, I am asking you to disavow cultural correctness with massive disobedience of rogue authority, social directives and onerous laws that weaken personal freedom.
- Charlton Heston

One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
- Dr. Martin Luther King

What state of affairs have we, when the tools of our forefathers for enacting social change are eschewed for being 'threatening'. OF COURSE THEY ARE THREATENING! THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE! What do any of you believe....that we have not tried to petition for redress? That we have not followed the process of contacting our legislators, of protesting laws, of fighting in the courts, of trying to work for change? That we just woke up from some stupor, and decided to skip over established methods and go right to storming the gates?

The simplest way to explain it is this: the legislation does not care about the Second Amendment, or the rights of any of the citizens of New Jersey involving guns. Any communication regarding those topics are IGNORED. Period. The court system is just as hopelessly corrupt. We have had ZERO assistance from the NRA, and the legislature sees organizations such as ANJRPC, GONJ, etc. as non-entities at best and threats to public safety at worst! The legislature WILL NEVER take this issue seriously unless they understand the baclash they will receive from their continued infractions on constitutional rights.

If I am wrong about Geek's intent, I would like to know. But then, if I am wrong, how would such a declaration be used in a real world fashion? A petition sent to Congress? A bumper sticker that says "I ignore the law"? A website we could post to anonimously to voice agreement?

It needs work, definitely. It needs, in my opinion, to be reworded into something that is less confrontational, with a logical detailing of both infringements and steps made to protest them, and with a simple and non-threatening statement of intent regarding the act of civil disobedience. It ought to be, in a sense, a Declaration of Civil Disobedience....it ought to in essence make an informed case supporting the necessity of an act of civil disobedience.

It takes more than sentiment to sway legislators. It takes voters pounding on the doors and shaking fists.

You do not know politics in New Jersey, then. If those shaking fists hold wads of dollars, then the legislators will be swayed. If those fists are shaken empty, and especially in defense of the Second Amendment, then the security will be called and the pounding voters will be arrested for disturbing the peace.

If I recall correctly, when federal investigation into political corruption is launched in New Jersey, it is considered standard procedure to NOT make contact with or utilize any state investigative resources. The reason? Even the watchers in NJ are rife with corruption. This state is so crooked it would make a contortionist cringe.
 
AR-10,

A bumper sticker that says "I ignore the law"?

Why not? During the dark days of the NMSL ("National Maximum Speed Limit" for you kids out there) Car & Driver sold "Vote With Your Right Foot!" bumper stickers and window decals with the 55 in a circle-n-slash. I had one.
 
The questions shouldn't be whether it is confrontational or threatening but if it's still possible to get enough people to actually go this route to make a difference. At this point any real change will only come from confrontation and if the Elites feel threatened. That's fine, I have no problem with it. i just have a problem believing the sheep-mentality isn't so all pervasive that it's too late.
 
My Thanks for the input...and feedback

Folks, My thanks for the input, it told me a lot of what I needed to know. Some points:


---Some clarifications are probably in order. Some of you mentioned my affiliation with NJCSD (New Jersey Coalition for Self Defense). For the record, unless I state explicitly otherwise, I am speaking on my own behalf, and not the NJCSD. That is the default, if you will. If I'm trying something out for them, I'll say so. This one was for me. So, AR-10 and others, this is not the direction I had in mind for my erstwhile colleagues @ NJCSD. For them, we've still got plans A,B & C to work with. Civil disobedience is more like plan K.

---No one really grokked the notion that threatening FUTURE civil disobedience against laws NOT YET ENACTED doesn't actually break any laws. Part of what I was looking for was to see if that point stuck, and the answer is no, people don't see the difference between that and actual civil disobedience. For the time being, I'm classifying this as an unpredictable subtlety that probably should stay tucked away in the bag of tricks. Since there's no percieved difference between this and civil disobedience, then I guess there's only civil disobedience, which is only one potential strategy, if and when it should come to that.

---Civil disobedience is a hard one to pull off in a gun context, because whether we intend it to be or not, guns are too easily perceived as an implicit threat of violence, which is counter to the spirit and effectiveness of non violent civil disobedience. Lunch counter sit ins where effective in part because the main thing that was threatened wasn't corporeal. I doubt the sympathies of the nation would have mustered had all those brave folks strapped shotguns to their backs while they sitting. The situation would have been spin vulnerable, and the outcome would have been much different. (Shotguns vs. lynching parties is another matter, however)

Responsible gunowners tend to be more scrupulous of the law than most. Therefore, we are cautious always to fight for our gun rights after we have first laid aside our arms, lest people get the wrong idea. Additionally, both the law and public sentiment label ANY TRANSGRESSION to do with firearms as SERIOUS CRIMINAL OFFENSES, and thus the trap is laid tight.

---This thread has really hilighted for me the fact that even within the progunowner community, there is no universal concensus on the need for action, it's form, it's goals, or the necessary level of intensity to achieve those goals. I think just about the only thing that everyone would sign up for is the lowest common denominator notion that things aren't great, and we hope they won't get any worse, like those poor SOB's in NJ, CA, MD, MA, NY, and IL. Other than that, we're all over the map, and vary widely in tolerance.

---whoami mentioned that perhaps this approach should be reworked, detailing the infringements and steps of redress that where tried and rejected. I experimentally wrote a paper along those lines, speaking in plain truths, building the case a block at a time. When I was done, I honestly could not avoid the conclusion that all 3 branches of government had failed to uphold the bill of rights. When seen laid out starkly bare like that, just about everyone who read it shat. The situation will have to approximate or exceed that of NJ on a national scale before that sort of thing even begins to become generally palatable.

---As I indicated, I'm stewing this one over, trying on different things to see how well (or not) they fit. The question I am grappling with is, in blunt terms, just what exactly will it take to reinstate to full glory the entire Bill of Right, in it's plain, unadulterated meaning? How do we make real, TODAY, the promise of Liberty and Justice for All?

IMHO, the biggest flaw in the Constitution was the lack of an explicit mechanism for enforcing the Bill of Rights. (I don't have a proposal, unfortunately.) Even the concept of judicial review evolved after the fact, rather than being explicitly spelled out.
The separation of powers helps somewhat, but are not proof against the levels of collusion between the various branches of government that we can infer from today's situation, or the extreme expansion of executive power.

Our best hope for a quick win is probably a SCOTUS ruling, but it seems that the 9 (nazgul? fellowship?) are doing everything in their power to duck the question.

I'm beat. Clicking send. Gnight.
 
"Probably all laws are useless; for good men do not want laws at all, and bad men are made no better by them." - Demonax (Roman Philosopher) 150AD
Don't laws shift the crime distribution? Don't they form a non-linear pattern when placed on a risk/reward graph and make profit-seeking criminals (as opposed to psychopaths) lean toward crimes with high gains and relatively short prison sentences?
 
geek WithA.45,

Thanks for the clarification.

Drawing a line in the sand and saying "If you cross this line we will ignore your mandates" will get you...ignored.

Simple as that. It is perfectly legal to do so but it will not be effective. Plus, at some point you will need to make the rubber meet the road, at which point you are talking about breaking a law.

If you look at the type of person who pushes for gun control you will see that he/she is elitist and controling. That type of person could care less if five million people ignore their new law. They will just pass another law to raise enough money to put all five million in prison.

You folks in New Jersey have few options. The ideal solution would be to educate the voters on key issues and vote out the Democrats that are ruining your state. It is too late to use this tactic to avoid more gun control legislation in the immediate future, as the foxes are in the coop for the term.

The only real option I see is a combination of media blitz/re-education for the masses and strident public protest. You need to somehow get non shooters outraged over their eroding RKBA. Not sure how to do that.
 
What the current gun control laws do is ignore intent in that they're aimed at those of us who haven't really done anything morally wrong thereby proclaiming moral content to be irrelevent. This sends a clear message that one's character isn't all that important, that understanding the difference between right and wrong doesn't matter and that it's more important to follow orders than to act responsibly and ethically.
Summary: There's a lot of ****** big time idiots around here. The challenge is how to articulate the blessings of freedom which are obviously taken for granted in favor of big screen TVs and SUVs. What was that "Never Again" BS? Unfortunately, these are the same idiots that were in denial (not to be confused with that river in Egypt) up to the time that they were dumped into ditches. I'm embarrassed by them.

My appologies - Edited to add:
**** you!
 
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