deepest penetrating 9mm JHP

[481]

AH HA! I did not know soft point 9mm bullets existed, thanks!


anybody else have an opinion on the issue of 124gr soft point vs 147gr XTP for penetration?

Hard to say.

Depends if the 124 gr. JSP expands (and how much) or not, if the 147 gr. JHP expands (and how much) or not and what the respective velocity of each one at impact and retained mass is.

Many variables involved, hard to say without specifics and even then there is room for much uncertainty.

There are mathematical models that take all of these factors into consideration and allow one to predict such terminal performance given those specifics.

 

[CZ57]

Two of the deeper penetrating JHPs are the older conventional JHPs from Remington 115 and 124 gr.

 

[JROC]

IDK, but my favorite 9mm JHP's, are the Winchester Ranger +P 147gr JHP's. They are very good.

 

[gofastman]

Winchester makes a +P 147gr???
I thought Federal was the only one that did that.

 

[JROC]

^ Yeap. And I was wrong it's not rated at +P. I thought it was. Still very good ammo.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/cPath/23_61_119/products_id/1580

Winchester Ranger is great ammo but hard to find someone who will sell it to civilians as Winchester only wants it sold to Military and Law Enforcement and that's who they make it for. From my understanding the Military 9mm round is the Winchester Ranger 124gr FMJ.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Why exactly are you worried about having the deepest penetrating 9mm for game up to 100lbs? Do you feel ammo designed for 200lb men will be insufficient on animals half that size?

 

[R.W.Dale]

Why exactly are you worried about having the deepest penetrating 9mm for game up to 100lbs? Do you feel ammo designed for 200lb men will be insufficient on animals half that size?

Pure lethality no.

But the thing is only exit wounds tend to bleed enough to provide a blood trail. I'm much more confident if I can ensure an exit wound. Deep penetration is to ensure recovery not lethality.

Factors that simply don't come into play with PD loads


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[918v]

Men and animals differ in the area of psychology. I concur with the JSP recommendation. It will outpenetrate the XTP because it will not expand to the same degree, if at all, at 9mm velocities.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Maybe the animal should be sent to a shrink first!

 

[glockmon]

Win. 147 gr. LE Ranger SXT .

 

[MikeNice]

My Ranger Bonded 147gr hps have reached 16 3/8 inches in water. It also expanded to about .5 inches on average.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Maybe the animal should be sent to a shrink first!

Animals don't watch reruns of "death wish III"

They don't know they're supposed to do triple backflips and land face first stone dead after being shot. People however are so conditioned


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[ol' scratch]

The 124 Grn NATO FMJ round used by our military is the best penetration projectile.

OP said (J)acketed (H)ollow (P)oint.

 

[Mike1234567]

I'm assuming you want the best compromise between penetration and damage path. Generally speaking, the greater the expansion the lesser the penetration. Also, generally speaking, the heavier the bullet the more penetration. Bonded vs. non-bonded makes a difference too.

For example; Federal 124gr Tactical HST (non-bonded) penetrates less and expands more than Federal 135gr Tactical Bonded.

FWIW, I recently switched from Hornady Critical Defense 115gr FTX to Federal 124gr HST (standard pressure). I would have opted for HST 147gr +P as my new HD cartridge but my little Kel-Tec P11 just isn't built to handle a steady diet of high-pressure loads. I switched because I moved from a tightly populated urban community to a sparse rural home so I no longer need to worry about overpenetration.

Again, FWIW, I hope this helps...

ETA: I know you didn't ask about .45 ACP but I keep mine loaded with Federal 230gr HST +P.

 

[Mike1234567]

anybody else have an opinion on the issue of 124gr soft point vs 147gr XTP for penetration?

Soft points (not frangible) will penetrate deeper but, for self defense, you'll not likely need more than 12 inches anyway. For large animals, yes. Also, if you want the greatest reliability of expansion the XTP isn't the best... though it probably penetrates deeper. Everything I've read places Winchester Ranger T and Federal HST at the top for reliable expansion.

 

[gofastman]

I'm assuming you want the best compromise between penetration and damage path. Generally speaking, the greater the expansion the lesser the penetration. Also, generally speaking, the heavier the bullet the more penetration. Bonded vs. non-bonded makes a difference too.

For example; Federal 124gr Tactical HST (non-bonded) penetrates less and expands more than Federal 135gr Tactical Bonded.

FWIW, I recently switched from Hornady Critical Defense 115gr FTX to Federal 124gr HST (standard pressure). I would have opted for HST 147gr +P as my new HD cartridge but my little Kel-Tec P11 just isn't built to handle a steady diet of high-pressure loads. I switched because I moved from a tightly populated urban community to a sparse rural home so I no longer need to worry about overpenetration.

Again, FWIW, I hope this helps...

I use 147gr +P HST's for my normal carry load. (if my Taurus 709 handles them I'm guessing your P11 should have no problem, but thats another topic)
Anybody know how significant the penetration difference between those and the Tactical Bonded 135gr +P rounds is?

Soft points (not frangible) will penetrate deeper [than XTP's]

is this fact or speculation?

 

[jon_in_wv]

I still think you guys may be overestimating the toughness of small animals. A round that is effective against a man is very likely to be equally effective against an animal. Stephen Camp shot a lot of deer over 100lbs with defensive loads and if you look at his website you can see the rounds, even those typically not considered to be deep penetrators, had pretty good terminal effect. If your are limiting your choice to game under 100lbs I would think just about any good defensive ammo would be very effective. If you don't think regular ammo will penetrate enough with a small animal than you should rethink what you are using for larger animals like a man. Personally, I wouldn't count on "psychological effect" to put a man down.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I think you're underestimating the difference from a successful PD outcome and one from an animal when hunting.

A SD load is effective when it makes the intended target stop what it's doing. Never mind how long the ER trauma crew work on the guy nor do you care where he crawls off to die if that's the case.

In hunting the outcome is to KILL the animal AND to find/recover the carcass. Which doesn't always happen immediately. Do you have any idea how much thickly forested ground a deer can cover in the appx30 seconds it takes for the brain to shut down from oxy starvation?

IT'S A LOT and it can happen I've had it happen with any caliber. Your insurance is the blood trail left by the EXIT WOUND, without which a deer that goes even 50yds into a briar thicket to you might as well be in another zip code.

Now I tend to agree with you that quality SD ammo is plenty lethal for the very small deer I intend to hunt at close range. Having read the late S. Camp's reports I find the results quite encouraging to the point I feel confident in my ability to replicate them. HOWEVER his kills were under very controlled circumstances (Culls on a lease) and the deer I read about were instantly incapacitated from CNS hits. Whereas my circumstances will be much less controlled and I'll be hunting in the horizontal plane vs Camps shooting almost straight down.

I know the cartridge will do the job I just want to make sure I'm hedging my chances toward having an exit wound as much as possible by using only the deepest penetrating JHP's that's all.




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[jackpinesavages]

It's the one you can put into the skull.

 

[Mike1234567]

...

...my little kel-tec p11 just isn't built to handle a steady diet of high-pressure loads.

...if my taurus 709 handles them i'm guessing your p11 should have no problem...

Kel-Tec rates the p11 as able to shoot +P "occasionally".

soft points (not frangible) will penetrate deeper (than hollow points)...

is this fact or speculation?

"generally speaking", soft points penetrate deeper (expand later after entry) than hollow points. They usually expand less too.

 

[918v]

But the thing is only exit wounds tend to bleed enough to provide a blood trail. I'm much more confident if I can ensure an exit wound. Deep penetration is to ensure recovery not lethality.

Exit wounds ensure faster blood loss, hence faster incapacitation. The blood trail is a side benefit. A SD round that exits a human torso has lost so much energy it is no more lethal than a rock from a slingshot.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Exit wounds ensure faster blood loss, hence faster incapacitation. The blood trail is a side benefit. A SD round that exits a human torso has lost so much energy it is no more lethal than a rock from a slingshot.

Not really. A double lung shot is lights out for Bambi fairly quickly exit wound or not. They still bleed the same it's just without an exit the blood and shredded lung pool in the chest cavity rather than getting splattered all over the place for me to follow.

Think about it! If you catch at minimum a 35 caliber hole through a couple of your vital organs you aren't gonna live longer just because a couple of ribs and grissle on the off side of your chest squeaked by unscathed.

And I don't think I'd want to bet my life and freedom on your "slingshot" theory.


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[jon_in_wv]

I think you're underestimating the difference from a successful PD outcome and one from an animal when hunting.

When did I make that comparison? I was comparing the results of DEER shot with SD loads, not self defense scenarios. Also, shot placement is what will put down an animal and blood loss from poor shot placement will eventually bring down an animal quicker than a round that doesn't fully perforate. Does anyone here have ANY experience shooting smaller game with a 9mm?? I would wager they aren't tougher than a grown man. I actually find it kind of curious how everyone seems to talk about how tough human tissue is and the 9mm is SOOO underpowered and you need awesome penetration to take down a human reliably but somehow animals half the size are much tougher and a higher standard has to be used against them. The results Stephen Camp posted using SD loads on deer were pretty impressive. Most times they went down very quickly and the blood loos from a perforating shot was not a factor.

 

[R.W.Dale]

When you drew a direct correlation between a particular loads effectiveness against humans to it's effectiveness on deer.

Ponder this most folks involved on the receiving end of handgun SURVIVE, the fact they survived in no way impacts the effectiveness of that loads "one shot" stop ratio. It just means the target stopped doing what they were doing to get shot at.

The goal in hunting is one shot KILL and then recovery of the carcass as second priority. I've seen too many deer go too far to want to forgo a blood trail giving exit wound if I can have one with careful load selection. If you've not hunted you simply cannot imagine how far even the weakest smallest most feeble deer can go with an absolutely mortal wound. Even Mr Camp had preferred loads for this role, which is largely what this thread is about.

I can only find reference to mr camps tree stand deer shot through the spinal column at a downward angle. If you have links to his writings on shooting other deer especially broadside double lung hits I'd love to see em.


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[Strykervet]

I'd think it would be a handloaded Hornady XTP, 147gr. But it won't expand much. For penetration, just use a 147gr. FMJ. If a heavy JHP expands, it won't much, so I'd forego the JHP in heavier 9mm. If the pistol can handle it, 147gr. flat point hardcast lead bullets would do just fine.

For defense with 9mm JHP, I like the LE Winchester Ranger T-Series 124gr. +P. Seems to be the best 9mm round I can get in a box around here. I can get the 115gr. +P+, but they aren't the T-Series. Either would be sufficient. As I understand it, 9mm hollowpoints perform better in the lighter weights.