Default Can you differentiate DAO vs. Striker fired for me?

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Hokkmike

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Of the following terms I clearly understand the difference between single action, double/single action, and double action.

I do not understand, in mechanical or technical terms, the real difference between DA, DAO, and Striker fired.

The question comes up because the literature with my new S&W Bodyguard says it is a "true" DAO and NOT striker fired. Can any body make this clear?

And why would DA not also be DAO? Aren't these two the same?

SA

DA

DA/SA

DAO

Striker Fired
 
Most of the time, when someone says DA, they mean DA/SA. DAO disambiguates this. Striker-fired means cycling the action partially cocks it; the trigger pull finishes cocking and releases it so pull and weight are intermediate between SA and DA.

I really don't like the term "striker fired", since it's really talking about striker vs. hammer and there's no inherent reason a gun using a striker couldn't be SA. But, it seems to have stuck...
 
Don't forget "hybrid double-action." :D

This is how the forensics report on the gun used in a high-profile self-defense incident here in Florida lists the trigger action of the weapon involved, a Kel-Tec PF9.

In a "HDA" mechanism, the hammer is neither fully-cocked nor fully-at-rest between shots. Pulling the trigger (once the slide has been racked to chamber a round) draws the hammer the rest of the way from where it lies against the sear to the rear, then releases it. When the gun fires (or the slide is otherwise racked), the hammer returns to it's partially-cocked position.

The advantage is a lighter, but consistent, trigger pull for all shots.
The disadvantage is the lack of a "re-strike" capability should a round fail to fire; the slide must be retracted at least partially to reset the hammer.
 
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The autoloaders section has a sticky on this.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=248556

As Joe pointed out, DA is often used to refer to DA/SA actions, and DAO is used to specify double action only.

S&W is trying to explain that you have a DAO action, and not some partially pre-cocked system used on a lot of new guns. Because a lot of guns that I wouldn't call "true" DAO are being referred to as such today.
 
Double action only - pulling the trigger both pulls back and releases the hammer and the end of the pull. The hammer strikes the end of the firing pin, causing the firing pin to hit and ignites the primer. The slide retracting is not required to pull the trigger and fire again. You can

Striker fired - a striker (similar to a firing pin)sits in the slide under spring pressure. It varies by model, by generally as you pull the trigger the striker is pulled back a little more, then eventually something moves out of the way allowing the striker to slam into the primer

They call striker fired "dao" because of the longer pull but this is typically not accurate. Some strikers are cocked back more than others, but generally require the slide to retract before you are able to pull the trigger and release the striker again

A striker fired gun could be DAO if they make it to where every trigger pull pulls back and releases the striker without needing the slide to retract and cock the striker back

DA can be DAO if there is no single action available, they may just have called it DA instead of DAO or DA/SA
 
I understood the DA vs. DAO when I was a little kid. If you took a regular revolver that was DA/SA and filed off the SA notch you end up with a DAO gun.

Now I have to explain the actions on a bunch of guns like my FNP-45 USG that's DA/SA, decocker, and you can carry it cocked and locked if you don't like hammer down DA/SA.
 
Of the striker fired guns Glock and the Smith M&P are DOA. The XD is true SA. Glock was the first with their striker fired guns and blurred the line a bit. The trigger really feels like a SA trigger, but mechanically it is not fully cocked until the user starts to pull the trigger. As you start to pull the trigger it finishes the cocking process then releases the sear.

The XD is fully cocked if a round is chambered. Pulling the trigger simply releases the sear and fires the gun. To my hands at least the Glock "feels" more like SA and the XD "feels" closer to DAO than the Glock. But that is not what is happening mechanically


Most PD's in this country forbid SA designs for their officers. This will pretty much limit XD's to non LEO purchases. S&W understood that when developing the M&P and the Sigma before that and closely copied Glocks design so they would be eligible for LE sales.
 
The defining factor for "double action" is whether pulling the trigger performs some or all of the cocking action. Whether the firing mechanism is a hammer or a striker makes no difference.
 
My Taurus 709 is described as SA/DA. Chambering a round fully cocks the striker, and the trigger break is what one might expect from a SA trigger. There is a 'second strike' capability on this gun that will fully cock and fire with a full motion of the trigger, with a break set at what is typical of a DA trigger. The first strike SA trigger broke at about 6#, the second strike DA trigger at 12#. Its completely backwards compared to my DA/SA S&W. I like it, though, because I have had some hard primers. Ideally, I'll never need to use the DA.
 
Yup, generally someone referring to something as 'striker-fired' means it's DAO or, more correctly IMO most of the time, a partially-stressed SA. DA, in my view, means that an uncocked weapon will cock and fire; an uncocked Glock, for instance, will not.

In reality, 'striker-fired' only means it uses a striker instead of a hammer. These are usually DAO or the aforementioned partially cocked actions, but not always.Taurus (and Steyr IIRC) made an actual DA/SA striker-fired pistol.

Of course, without a dedicated decocking mechanism, it functioned only as SA or partially-cocked, and the DA action was billed as a 'second strike capability'.
 
Strikers or hammers don't have anything to do with the trigger type. HDA, DA/SA, DAO, SAO have all been made with hammers and strikers for decades.

A striker is just a linear hammer.
 
DAO - in double action only the trigger is cocking and releasing the hammer for every shot. When the slide cycles, it will not recock the hammer, and there is no way for you to cock the hammer manually. It has the same pull for every shot, and typically a DAO trigger is lighter than the DA portion of a DA/SA trigger.

Striker - instead of a hammer, the firing pin is a spring loaded plunger. Pulling the trigger pulls back the striker plunger and then releases it. Some brands have the striker plunger preloaded more than others. The slide must cycle to preload the striker for the next shot.
 
Strikers or hammers don't have anything to do with the trigger type. HDA, DA/SA, DAO, SAO have all been made with hammers and strikers for decades.

A striker is just a linear hammer.

That's how it ought to be, but when Taurus is saying "true DAO not striker" they're (mis) using the term as described elsewhere in the thread, and in a very common way.
 
What I'd like to see catch on would be to use a number between 1 and 2 to describe the preload -- so SA is 1, DA is 2, a 25% preload is 1.75... Why, yes, I am a retired computer science professor, why do you ask?
 
Simpler for strikers would be 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, or full cocked. That would get pretty close to what status the striker plunger is precocked.
 
Double-action simply means that the trigger completes two functions; cocking the firearm, and releasing the hammer to fire the firearm. This is opposed to single-action where the trigger merely releases the hammer, which must be cocked by some other mechanism--either the movement of the slide in an autoloading handgun, or via the operator manually cocking the hammer in a single-action revolver. Because the double-action mechanism must cock and release the hammer, the trigger pull is usually longer and heavier than the typical single action trigger pull. Some lawyer driven mentalities hold this as safer than the lighter trigger pull of the single action firearms.

Among double-actions, their are two disctinct types. Most are so-called DA/SA or "traditional DA." This includes pretty much every double-action revolver without a bobbed or enclosed hammer because they can be fired DA, or the hammer can be manually cocked to fire the handgun SA. In autos, a DA/SA will typically have a long, heavy DA trigger pull for the first shot. The slide will cock the hammer for subsequent shots, allowing for subsequent shots to be fired with a shorter, lighter SA pull. These pistols usually have a de-cocker that allows the hammer to be safely dropped before the pistol is returned to its holster.

Double-Action Only (DAO) means the pistol can not be cocked and fired in single action. Every pull of the trigger will necessitate that the hammer be cocked and released. Any revolver with a bobbed or enclosed hammer would be considered DAO.

Striker vs hammer fired is a completely different argument. Striker fired mostly means that the trigger mechanism acts on a striker, which is basically just a modified firing pin in most cases, rather than a hammer, then a firing pin. There are striker fired rifles, like the CZ VZ-58 and most bolt actions, and striker fired handguns, most noteably, the Glock. There are single-action striker fired handguns, like the Kimber Solo. Most, like the aforementioned Glock, qualify as neither single, nor double actions.

In the Glock, the movement of the slide cocks the striker assembly to a little over what would normally be referred to as half-cocked. This is done so that even if the striker safety and other passive safeties fail and the striker is released when the pistol is dropped, for example, the striker still theatrically doesn't possess enough energy to fire the cartridge, thereby making it mechanically impossible to cause the Glock to fire by dropping or jarring it. The striker is cocked the rest of the way and released by the movement of the trigger, much like a double-action. However, in order to qualify as a double-action, you must be able to fully cock and release the hammer or striker through the movement of the trigger. All true double-actions will have so-called "double strike capability" because all that is required to cock and fire the pistol is for you to pull the trigger. This is not possible with the Glock, which requires movement of the slide to bring it to its stored "half cock" position. Therefore, the Glock is technically neither double-action or single-action. The ATF may group the Glock in as a double-action but this is because a) no one ever accused anyone in the esteemed federal agency that tried to ban a 14 inch shoelace as a machine gun as being smart and b) because more than likely, there was no "other" option to mark on the paperwork, just single-action or double-action, as prior to the Glock, these categories likely sufficed. Still, if you're holding a pear, but the only options on the sheet are "apple" and "orange," you can mark "orange" if you want, but it doesn't make your pear an orange. And the Glock is absolutely not a double-action, period.
 
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Hey Joe,

That's just more Taurus stupidity, or general misuse of terminology. The HK VP70 was striker DAO 40 years ago.

And I really think the "half cocked" descriptions of HDA miss the mark. Glock's trigger is as light as it is because there is another spring helping pull the trigger. All the HDA guns use springs in a novel and non-resettable way to produce more primer igniting force for less trigger pull. In this way all are closer conceptually to SA than DAO. Look at how a CZ-75 works on SA sometime and we could start calling that 7/8 cocked.

I think it is more useful to discuss downsides and effective trigger pull than how the mechanism works.
 
When you think ever possible variation has been described ...

There are also striker-fired guns with true single-action triggers, but tension on the striker can be applied or released manually without moving the slide. Both the HK P7 and Savage 1907 are striker-fired guns that can be manually cocked and decocked.
 
M
y Taurus 709 is described as SA/DA. Chambering a round fully cocks the striker, and the trigger break is what one might expect from a SA trigger. There is a 'second strike' capability on this gun that will fully cock and fire with a full motion of the trigger, with a break set at what is typical of a DA trigger. The first strike SA trigger broke at about 6#, the second strike DA trigger at 12#. Its completely backwards compared to my DA/SA S&W. I like it, though, because I have had some hard primers. Ideally, I'll never need to use the DA.

When I was in the market for a carry gun the two I narrowed it down to were the 709 Slim and the Ruger LC9. I am so glad I went with the 709 because of the trigger. I can't stand DAO triggers and will never buy one unless I just get it for a song.

I have actually had to use the DA trigger once on my 709. It was my fault. I left a primer too high. The first strike seated it and the second fired it.
 
In autos, a DA/SA will typically have a long, heavy DA trigger pull for the first shot. The slide will cock the hammer for subsequent shots, allowing for subsequent shots to be fired with a shorter, lighter SA pull.

The hammer of a DA automatic can also be manually cocked to fire the first shot in SA mode.

"DA/SA" refers to the mode of operation, not the trigger mechanism. If desired a DA automatic can also be fired "SA/SA". (IMO, "DA/SA" is dumbed down terminology for the firearms illiterate who don't understand how a DA trigger mechanism operates.)

There is no such trigger mechanism as "SAO". (I realize one gun manufacturer recently invented this as a marketing term for an SA version of one of its DA handguns.) A SA trigger mechanism cannot perform any other action but drop the cocked hammer when the trigger is pressed. Adding "Only" ("SAO") means an SA trigger mechanism is somehow capable of more than one action when it's pressed.
 
The hammer of a DA automatic can also be manually cocked to fire the first shot in SA mode.

Show me how to manually cock a Sig P250 or a Ruger LC9.

IMO, "DA/SA" is dumbed down terminology for the firearms illiterate who don't understand how a DA trigger mechanism operates.

That is not the case.

Contrary to what you believe, some auto pistols are DAO, meaning that double action is the ONLY method of firing the gun. The two I mentioned above are auto pistols with NO WAY POSSIBLE to cock the gun manually. You must pull the trigger all the way back, which cocks the weapon and drops the internal hammer. The triggers do not reset because they are DAO, meaning they do not cock themselves when fired. You must release the pressure on the trigger and let it go all the way back to the beginning where it started and repeat the process again.

DA/SA is a term that accurately describes a pistol that fired the first round via double action and the remaining rounds in single action mode. My Sig 2022 is an example of this. In a DA/SA gun, you do have the option of cocking the hammer manually and doing away with the DA feature if you so choose. This is what I like to do myself.

SAO is used to refer to a gun that has no double action capability whatsoever, like a 1911 or a Browning High Power. They can be fired single action only. You MUST manually cock the hammer.
 
Contrary to what you believe, some auto pistols are DAO, meaning that double action is the ONLY method of firing the gun.

You seem confused. I was discussing the trigger mechanism of a DA automatic.

DA/SA is a term that accurately describes a pistol that fired the first round via double action and the remaining rounds in single action mode.

DA/SA is a MODE OF OPERATION for a DA automatic. DA/SA is NOT a trigger mechanism. It is a DA mechanism.

SAO is used to refer to a gun that has no double action capability whatsoever, like a 1911 or a Browning High Power. They can be fired single action only.

I reiterate - Adding "Only" ("SAO") means an SA trigger mechanism is somehow capable of performing more than a single action when it's pressed. SA "Only" is redundant and incorrect. It's a term for the firearms illiterate.

There are three trigger mechanisms: 1) SA, 2) DA, and 3) DAO. Everything else is a trivial distinction.
 
Show me how to manually cock a Sig P250 or a Ruger LC9.
Those aren't "DA" they are DAO. However, a DA/SA P99 can't be manually cocked. And USP Compacts have recessed hammers.

DA/SA is a good description of a gun that can be fired DA, but has an automatically occurring SA trigger for subsequent shots.

"DA" is a good word for a gun that has both kind of trigger pulls, but doesn't automatically default to SA when firing. This is how a normal revolver works, and is one of the modes of the Browning BDM pistol - it would fire DA after every shot, but could be manually cocked.

So DA, DA/SA and DAO are good descriptors for three different kind of trigger systems.


The term "SAO" came to be on guns that are typically DA/SA but have been converted to SAO, like CZ type match guns. It's useful just to draw attention to the modified trigger.
 
This stuff confuses me sometimes to when it comes to striker fired's but,

DAO is reserved for semi autos whose hammer is designed to not cock when the slide recoils. Thus always being like the first shot on a DA/SA

DA is reserved fro revolvers that have a double action trigger


and where strikers fit in all that gets really confusing
 
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