DAO

[jstein650]

OK. Now I've been following this thread, and I'm trying to get this straight. Most, but not all, 'DAO' pistols these days are striker fired. There are systems that allow the cocked or fired gun to leave the hammer/striker in a - fully retracted, semi-retracted, or non-retracted state. Correct? So the DA pull will either drop the hammer (not really DA), partially retract and drop the hammer (striker, hammer), or fully retract the striker and drop it to fire. I know the Glocks I've fired do a partial lift and drop. I've never fired a Kahr. So that is a full retract and drop? The striker pistols I've fired never had a second strike capability. So, I assume they work on a partial, at least, retract before drop. Which is usually facilitated by the slide movement. No-fire=no 2nd shot. Unless it is a true DA. Which brings me back to my question.

 

[9mmepiphany]

2) is like a glock right?

what are the other like

1) the striker spring being fully cocked/compressed and released by a single trigger pull,

2) the striker spring being partially cocked/compressed by slide movement and further compressed and released by the trigger, and

3) fully compressed by the slide action, and released by trigger action.

1) H&K VP-70
2) Glock, S&W M&P 9/40/45, Kahr
3) Springfield XD/XDm, Baby Browning

 

[9mmepiphany]

Most, but not all, 'DAO' pistols these days are striker fired. There are systems that allow the cocked or fired gun to leave the hammer/striker in a - fully retracted, semi-retracted, or non-retracted state. Correct?

While it is the term most commonly used, DAO when applied to striker fired pistols isn't usually correct...it is more a marketing tool to qualify for military/LE contracts. That is why many folks address the most common striker fired pistols separately

That is if you use the DA term in the same sense as that used in revolvers; where trigger movement takes the striker all the way from rest to fully cocked. On a pistol, this would allow a second strike (double strike) on a cartridge which isn't ignited by the first strike.

If the movement of the slide leaves the striker fully cocked, it isn't a DAO system

 

[jstein650]

Do you know of any 'DAO' striker fired pistols that allow for a fully retracted, or even a partially retracted striker to snap for a 2nd fire capability? The exposed hammer, Ruger P90, SIG's, CZ and others certainly can. Not that 2nd fire is that big of a deal, I'm just curious as to the mechanics.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Shooting a double action handgun is a good way to master your fundamentals. I know a lot of good shooters who started off shooting a revolver, some of them still do. They may have moved on to another gun with a different action but they still shoot well because they have figured out the best way to keep the gun on target while manipulating the trigger.

The thing I like about a DAO pistol is that the trigger pull is the same every shot, and the safety of a longer pull is more apparent.

I don't consider the Glock, M&P, or XD to be anything close to a double action, more like a slightly longer single action, especially with the trigger kits that are so popular these days.

 

[jstein650]

To: MarshallDodge... Yup

I believe if one can master DA shooting fast and regularly from a good revolver, all the rest is academic... well, not everything, but the basics anyway. Single action autos, revolvers, plastic guns... all much easier if you can keep the blade level and shoot.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Do you know of any 'DAO' striker fired pistols that allow for a fully retracted, or even a partially retracted striker to snap for a 2nd fire capability?
...I'm just curious as to the mechanics.

Walther P99 will draw the striker from the fully down position to fully cocked before releasing it for another strike at the primer.

 

[peacemaker45]

Excellent question. Autopistols started out as single actions. That worked pretty well, but lots of people were nervous about walking around with the hammer cocked. Without the hammer cocked, they were hard to get into action. Also, SA triggers can be light and touchy, too much so for people with high stress and low training.

The next major development was the DA/SA. Now, the user could load and decock, and have his piece ready to fire, without any scary cocked hammer. All it cost was a heavier first trigger pull. In theory, this sounded good. In practice, however, it was soon found that when a shooter pulls a twelve pound trigger, he expects the next pull to be twelve pounds. If its actually four, he is quite likely to wind up sending a bullet somewhere he didn't intend to. This was especially a concern among agencies which issue pistols to non shooter types. It's hard enough to train an uninterested person to shoot, let alone to manage a complex weapons system. To learn to do it well, you have to want to. Most issuees don't.

Enter the DAO. From the manufacturer's standpoint, it's an easy option to offer. All they have to do is not machine an SA sear notch onto certain hammers. Voila! DAO. It sidesteps the light and touchy trigger of the SA, and the heavy to light and touchy transition of the DA/SA, by making all pulls the same. Unfortunately, it did so by making all pulls uniformly awful. This did not help the scores of the aforementioned uninterested trainees.

Thus, at the end of our long and winding road, we have arrived at the striker fired trigger. The pulls are all the same, unlike the DA/SA. The pulls aren't as light and touchy as a SA, but don't suck as badly as the DAO. Consequently, it is to be hoped, neither do the scores of those to whom such triggers are issued.

 

[italianbreadman]

OK. Now I've been following this thread, and I'm trying to get this straight. Most, but not all, 'DAO' pistols these days are striker fired. There are systems that allow the cocked or fired gun to leave the hammer/striker in a - fully retracted, semi-retracted, or non-retracted state. Correct? So the DA pull will either drop the hammer (not really DA), partially retract and drop the hammer (striker, hammer), or fully retract the striker and drop it to fire. I know the Glocks I've fired do a partial lift and drop. I've never fired a Kahr. So that is a full retract and drop? The striker pistols I've fired never had a second strike capability. So, I assume they work on a partial, at least, retract before drop. Which is usually facilitated by the slide movement. No-fire=no 2nd shot. Unless it is a true DA. Which brings me back to my question.

The problem with classifying striker-fired semi-autos into these existing categories is that they just don't fit. They are entirely separate entities.

TECHNICALLY, the triggers perform TWO ACTIONS - finalizing the retraction of the striker into a fire-able position and then letting it rip - but PRACTICALLY, their function is more like that of a single-action, in that they rely on the racking slide to prepare the weapon to fire.

So it's a matter of just misusing terms that can never truly apply to something that is an entirely new design.

The pre-set (half-cocked, whatever) striker mechanism is a sort of middle ground elected to lighten up triggers in comparison with the lengthy TRUE DOUBLE-ACTIONS (hammer-fired), yet still offer a consistent trigger pull through all shots, unlike the DA/SA guns that require more training to operate properly.

I mean, we went from guns with two different trigger pulls, manual safeties, decockers, and more accidental double-taps than police forces will probably care to admit, to simple designs that ask only for their users to draw, point, and pull... the same trigger pull every single time.

So really, the categories should look like this:

1) SA
2) DA/SA
3) DAO
and
4) Striker-fired (I also like Beretta's term - CONSTANT ACTION - even though the Px4 has a hammer and may be more of a specialized DAO)

 

[JTQ]

Here are some articles from the late Stephen A. Camp that may be helpful.

SA or DA/SA auto's http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Single-Action Vs. Double-Action Automatics.htm

Automatics: What's the best action for me? http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Automatic Action Types.htm

SIG P-220 SAS (DAK) http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/range report on P220 DAK.htm

 

[MedWheeler]

The firearms-forensic report on the Kel-Tec PF9 used in a high-profile self-defense case labels its trigger action as a "hybrid."..

(The PF9 uses a hammer that is left partially-cocked by the slide action. Pulling the trigger completes the rearward travel before releasing it to fire.)

 

[JTQ]

I almost forgot we have a "sticky" on this stuff... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=248556

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The problem with classifying striker-fired semi-autos into these existing categories is that they just don't fit. They are entirely separate entities.

Which is why, in my response, I mentioned similar (to the conventional SA, DA, DA/SA and DAO) types of functionality in striker-fired guns -- but didn't call them the same.

The similarities are close enough for most folks, however...

And just when we think we have it all sorted out, someone else noted, above, even hammer-fired guns don't always fit into these clear-cut categories: my Kel-Tec PF-9 is a hybrid.

 

[italianbreadman]

Which is why, in my response, I mentioned similar (to the conventional SA, DA, DA/SA and DAO) types of functionality in striker-fired guns -- but didn't call them the same.

The similarities are close enough for most folks, however...

And just when we think we have it all sorted out, someone else noted, above, even hammer-fired guns don't always fit into these clear-cut categories: my Kel-Tec PF-9 is a hybrid.

Yeah. There are so many different designs and mechanisms that all go "bang" when you pull the trigger. Haha.

I didn't realize the PF-9 was like that. That's probably the same type of system in the Beretta Px4 Type C that I noted.

 

[Cocked & Locked]

DAO handguns have an advantage that in a crisis situation one just has to pull the trigger to shoot. There are no manual safeties or de-cockers.

This assortment are all DAO with a hammer..no strikers. Just pull the trigger...no fumbling or muscle memory loss.

S&W 6946


NAA Guardian


Kel Tec P32


Kel Tec PF9


Charter Arms Undercover (converted to DAO)


Ruger SP101


S&W 642


S&W 40


S&W New Departure


NONE of the above can be manually cocked and all have hammers.

 

[MedWheeler]

Actually, Cocked-and-Locked, it can be argued that not all of your guns shown are "true DAO", as those people will argue that a "true DAO" takes, with each trigger pull, the hammer all the way from a fully-at-rest position to a full-rear position, then releases it to impact for fire. These guns would also have so-called "re-strike capability", and would not have a manual-cock or partial cock option.

The Kel-Tecs in your post (both of which I own) are "hybrids". The P11 is, by that argument, a "true DAO", however.

I agree about the perceived advantage you mention, though, especially for those of us originally combat-trained with police revolvers.

Handsome assortment (but I'll keep the hammer on my dad's old Charter, though!)

 

[CZ9shooter]

When I was new to firearms I used to get confused about striker fired weapons. Maybe that is where the OP's problems started?

Many spec sheets and other sources of information tend to call them DAO. I had a hard time wrapping my head around that. Now that I know the differences I have decided to put them in their own special group. SAO, DAO, SA/DA, and striker fired.

When somebody asks me about my SR9 I tell them it is striker fired. If I get a dumbfounded look, I attemp to explain it's operation.

 

[kokapelli]

When I was new to firearms I used to get confused about striker fired weapons. Maybe that is where the OP's problems started?

Many spec sheets and other sources of information tend to call them DAO. I had a hard time wrapping my head around that. Now that I know the differences I have decided to put them in their own special group. SAO, DAO, SA/DA, and striker fired.

When somebody asks me about my SR9 I tell them it is striker fired. If I get a dumbfounded look, I attemp to explain it's operation.

If you compare the SR9 and say a Kahr K9 they are both strikers, but the SR9 would be more like a single action and the K9 is much closer to a DAO.

 

[flatlander937]

I think it gets confusing for some when they get the "double action" meaning down... but not all "DAO" guns will fire without manually racking the slide(striker fired guns as has been being discussed).

I have a Kahr CM9 and freaking l-o-v-e the trigger. I had a 1911 first and like it too, but I was surprised to find that I shoot my sub-compact CM9 better than my Commander-sized 1911(ignoring 9 vs .45 of course... due to weight and size differences I'd say both have very similar recoil overall). The CM9 is the easiest shooting "tiny" gun I've shot yet.

I've grown to like the trigger and lack of "manual" external safeties and the ease of teardown quite a bit... so much so that I really want to get a TP45(basically a Kahr full size .45 that holds 7+1 just like my 1911) and a CW40 or 9 just because I like the size of the CW series overall. They seem to fit my hand better than my 1911(admittedly I really need to buy some thin grips for mine and that will likely be a moot point).

 

[Cocked & Locked]

Actually, Cocked-and-Locked, it can be argued that not all of your guns shown are "true DAO", as those people will argue that a "true DAO" takes, with each trigger pull, the hammer all the way from a fully-at-rest position to a full-rear position, then releases it to impact for fire. These guns would also have so-called "re-strike capability", and would not have a manual-cock or partial cock option.

The Kel-Tecs in your post (both of which I own) are "hybrids". The P11 is, by that argument, a "true DAO", however.

I agree about the perceived advantage you mention, though, especially for those of us originally combat-trained with police revolvers.

Handsome assortment (but I'll keep the hammer on my dad's old Charter, though!)

None of the ones pictured can be manually cocked by thumbing a hammer back "single action" style and letting it lock into a cocked mode. I understand what you are saying about double-strike capability. I'm speaking of DAO as in the only way to fire the gun is by squeezing the trigger.

Originally LEO combat trained here with a S&W model 15 during the early 1970's. Old codger here.

 

[CZ9shooter]

. but not all "DAO" guns will fire without manually racking the slide(striker fired guns as has been being discussed).

This is just one reason I like to categorize them differently from the rest.

 

[Onward Allusion]

DAO is a personal preference. Some shooters absolutely hate it and will blame the gun/trigger for their horrible performance. Whereas others swear by DAO because every pull of the trigger is consistent and deliberate.

I fall into the latter category. A nice heavy but smooth trigger teaches solid trigger control. If you can keep on target while managing the trigger, you will be able to better manage something like a Glock. On the flip side though is if all you shoot are revolvers and true DAO pistols, something with a light SA will have you cause ND/AD's when you're filled with adrenaline.

A few of my semi-autos are true hammer fired DAO. Sigs w/DAK, KT P11, NAA Guardian. I like DAO so much that I'd considered having a 'smith convert one of my 5906's into true DAO rather than being a DA/SA. These days, I practice with a 5906 & a LaserLyte Trainer cartridge & targets. Works like a charm.

 

[Hardtarget]

I've carried a S&W mod 4553TSW(.45acp). It is DAO. Its a love/hate relationship. I only owned and carried revolvers for many years. Then I felt it was time to make the shift. I do not shoot this gun as well as I would like and not as good as my revolver. It has a few advantages that I want...I just don't get enough practice to get smooth at distance.

If you decide to carry a DAO decide to work on/practice regularly to get to the proficiency level you want...that would be out past my level....

Good luck.

Mark

 

[capttom]

As far as striker fired guns are concerned, the seldom seen CZ 100 has a long pull that fully drives the striker back against its spring till it releases, just like a DA revolver. Thus it has second strike capability. Out of the box there's considerable "stack" in the trigger pull, but it's easily lightened with a little elbow grease.
I have a Smith & Wesson 3953 that doesn't have second strike capability; I'd rather have an NYPD-style 3914 DAO if I had to do it over again.The '14 DAO has second strike capability if I remember correctly.

 

[GJSchulze]

Thus it has second strike capability

What does that mean?