Defended myself with a shotgun today...

[SquirrelNuts]

Defended myself with a shotgun today...UPDATE!!!

Today I was in a situation where my life was threatened by two problem pit bulls in the neighborhood. These dogs have killed numerous animals, attacked other animals and attacked people. I fired six shots at the dogs at distances of 10 to 20 feet before they finally stopped charging me and turned around and left. I searched the yard for the platic wads, but only found two of the six. One wad and shot hit a dogwood tree. The other wad I found had approximately 30 dog hairs on it. I could not find the other four wads anywhere. I searched all over my yard, the street, and the neighbor's yards for two hours. Is it possible that at a close distance the wads are actually stuck in the dogs? Has anyone ever shot a deer, duck, or turkey at a very close distance and found the wad in the animal?

-SquirrelNuts

 

[AStone]

dogwood tree

One wad and shot hit a dogwood tree.

why do i find that so symbolic?

congrats on not being eaten.

i have some issues with people who don't keep their dogs under control. uncontrolled barking is one thing. i'll deal for a while, then try to quiet it via legal channels. if all else fails, i'll move to avoid compulsive barking dogs, but i won't harm the dogs. it's not their fault, but their stupid humans.

but when dogs attack, well, that changes the equation for me.

while living in a rural area of the NW a few years ago, there were two large labs (that's labrador retrievers) across the road. a father and son pair. friendly enough when the owner was around, or if you happened to have food. but otherwise, you learned quickly to watch your ass.

the daddy dog was either crazy, abused, or both. had it bark threateningly and bare it's teeth at me on my own back porch more than once. they used my back yard for access to the woods behind, and somehow came to think of my yard as their territory.

one night, a friend had arrived in my driveway for a visit from out of town at about 1 AM. As we unloaded his suit case, the dogs came over, barking ferociously because there was an "intruder" in the neighborhood. I spoke to them in a calm voice, told them nothing was wrong. they came closer (i'm talking 10'), got angrier.

I stepped inside, and came back out with a SW 3914, fired one shot into the ground near them (but not aimed directly at them).

the barking stopped instantly and they ran for home. next morning, we found two, large, deep sets of scratch marks in the gravel left during rapid acceleration by canine claws.

i never saw those dogs again.

i moved out of the neighborhood two months after that.

i wonder if those dogs survived the person who moved in after me?

 

[TCW]

Wow...I'm glad you're ok!

Six shots at 10-20 feet..and they just "left"? Did you hit them?

 

[mattw]

I have to ask.. if you actually got any hits what kind of shot were you using? Birdshot? 00 Buck should've cut a dog in half (or damn close to it), especially at those distances. If you were using "high brass" loads it is entirely possible that the wads are stuck in the dogs at 10 to 20 feet. I would be inclined to think that if the wad was stuck in the dog that all of the shot should've also been in the dog which should've resulted in a dead dog. If you were using something small like #7 1/2 or 8 shot i guess you might've not gotten good penetration (probably an inch or two if that) which could explain why they were able to run away.

6 shots, two dogs, 10-20 feet? I say you should've had to clean up more than wads....

 

[Jagermeister]

I have to wonder about the number of shots etc, the distance and the type of shot. It would seem, to me, that even W/a #7 load, if a dog was hit at that distance, there would be some indication from the dog that it had been hit. A yelp, an body movement indicating a hit.

I have had a couple of experiences with wild dogs during deer season. While hunting on a military reservation in GA there are numerous reports of wild dogs running deer.

On one occasion, I was standing beside a deer trail when a large buck, 8 Point, came running toward me, he was at top speed too. When he saw me he turned right, I fired my Win 97, Braniiky (sp) slug, from about 30 yds. (Yup I got him) Having hunted here before, I reloaded and started to approach the deer. It was then that three dogs, a larg Chow, and two smaller dogs came out of the brush, on the same trail, headed straight for me. They didn't turn toward the deer.

These dogs were coming at a pretty good clip, straight up the trail I was on. When I fired on the lead dog, he went down, the other two, turned and headed to my left. I was able to put both of them down, using 00 buck at a distance of about 15 yrds.

Granted, I was using a heavy load, and it didn't take much to put them down, but there was an indication in each dog that it had been hit. The lead dog dropped like a stone, (slug) the 2nd dog spun around, and never got up, and the third dog went to his rear haunch and couldn't move any more, This includes the deer. When the slug hit him he "hunche backed" and I knew he was hit pretty good.

Hmmmmmmm

HJN

 

[1911 guy]

Problem dogs

Late last week I had to dust the neighbors dog. Cornered my wife, so it had to go. The neighbor was told several times (by me) that his dog was running out of second chances to charge my wife and he'd better tie it up or fence it. That being said, if these dogs were threatening you why are they not deceased dogs? I personally like dogs, but the next person they go after might be a kid. By the way, I used 12ga. 2 3/4" #4's, 1 3/4oz turkey loads.

 

[ArmyCop]

Quote: Late last week I had to dust the neighbors dog. Cornered my wife, so it had to go. The neighbor was told several times (by me) that his dog was running out of second chances to charge my wife and he'd better tie it up or fence it
============================================

Neighbor have anything to say after this or just accepted it?

 

[1911 guy]

The neighbor called the cops...

And they wrote him up for not restraining his dog (Oh. has a leash law) and told me I had been a bad boy shooting inside township limits, don't do it again.

 

[SquirrelNuts]

I was using 00 Buck in a 2 3/4" reduced recoil load. There are 8 pellets each load. I am wondering if the load are just weak???

I love dogs myself, I currently own two, and have always grown up with dogs. These guys are reported (citations, court cases, fines, affidavits) problem dogs that have had the taste of blood in their mouth before.

-Robert

 

[GunGoBoom]

shooting inside township limits, don't do it again.

Umm, in my state, the entire state is divided into counties, then townships, and then sections, with a township being (usually) 36 square miles. Thus, there isn't a single square foot in the state which is not within "township limits" - how does it work there? Maybe city limits is what they meant? I too don't see how those dogs could survive 6 blasts under 20 feet.

 

[mattw]

I was using 00 Buck in a 2 3/4" reduced recoil load. There are 8 pellets each load. I am wondering if the load are just weak???

And I am wondering if your resolve is just weak. At 10 feet anyone could hit a large dog.
If the dogs were able to run away and you found no blood you didn't get any hits. You need more practice and a tougher mentality .

GunGoBoom, There are places in Countys that have chosen not to be annexed by any city and are thus not within township limits. For example: I live in Harrison County in Mississippi. Two neighboring cities are Long Beach and Pass Christian. There is a small section of Harrison County between LB and Pass that has not been annexed by either city. Result: I have an LB address and a Pass phone number and a well for water and I am outside any township limits and can shoot on my own property during legal daylight hours as long as I am safe.

 

[1911 guy]

Ohio city/township

Here in Ohio small towns are townships and big towns are cities. So in effect I shot within city limits, just a really small city.

 

[PJR]

And I am wondering if your resolve is just weak. At 10 feet anyone could hit a large dog. If the dogs were able to run away and you found no blood you didn't get any hits. You need more practice and a tougher mentality.

matt: So have you actually done this yourself or is this just armchair quarterbacking? Maybe you'd care to relate your experience before you start questioning someone else's resolve.

squirrel: You got the job done and in the real world that is all that matters.

Paul

 

[SquirrelNuts]

Pics

Some fun pics...

 

[Geno]

Simple facts explained are enough for inference...at best

The dogs stopped...stopped at 10 to 20 feet. How far they actually were when (possibly) struck can not be determined, but may well have been 25 to 30 yards. I have some videos by professionals who assess the patterns and effects of numerous firearms. It is possible, that if fired at 20 to 25 yards, you may have landed only 1 of 8 pellets into the beasts. By 35 yards, you're lucky if ANY pellets hit.

The wad may have fallen close to the critters and caught hair, but the shot may have all missed. However, at best we can infer, and in some cases second-guess. I too use these reduced loaded. By virtue of the dead dog wood tree and the impact marks, I'd say the pellets have serious power. I can and will only say,

"Thank the Lord you're alright". Resolve? Nope...I think you had good resolve. I hope this never happens to you again!"

Doc2005

 

[walking arsenal]

I carry more for this reason than i do for social situations. Thats partially why i chose a .45. Around here we have afew native american reservations and for whatever reason we seem to have a lot of dog problems around and in those. I keep a 12ga in my trunk for that. My sister had to take a neighbors dog once, it kept coming over to our house and it finally got bold and tore into some of our live stock and chased a horse or two through a barbed wire fence. she took it with the 20ga i gave her.

 

[GigaBuist]

When I first got my Baikal "Coach Gun" I ran some of those Federal 00 Buck reduced recoil loads through it at paper targets 15 yards away. About 30 of them is I recollect -- 25 to 30 we'll say.

I swear 3-4 of them went through the plywood backing and made a .79" hole. I also put some Remington "sluggers" down range and I couldn't tell the difference between the 00 Buck loads that didn't expand and the slug loads.

What that would mean to a dog getting hit by one I do not know. Just random info.

 

[mattw]

matt: So have you actually done this yourself or is this just armchair quarterbacking? Maybe you'd care to relate your experience before you start questioning someone else's resolve.

I didn't mean for my post to be taken seriously, it was more of a side-ways joke. hence the smiley.

not armchair quarterbacking, however.

 

[Correia]

This is why you need to pattern your buckshot.

Good for you. Too bad they lived.

At ten feet (not yards) a load of 00 buck to the rump of a large dog will spin it pretty good, and cause a pretty ghastly wound. Drops them relatively quick. But it has been a long time since I've gotten out of this here armchair.

 

[FPrice]

Has anyone ever shot a deer, duck, or turkey at a very close distance and found the wad in the animal?

While I have not had to shoot any animals at close range I have done some patterning with some of my shotguns. At 7 yards, about two out of three times the wad hit the target very close to the buckshot holes and often penetrated the cardboard. It is possible that the wads hit the dogs and stuck somehow.

 

[AStone]

Patterning 101

This is why you need to pattern your buckshot.

This week, class, we're going to review shotgun patterning.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=11817

Please put away your pencils, papers, books, calculators & laptops, and get out your 12 ga. We'll take a 10 minute break, then meet out in the range for an extended lab period.


___________

Thanks to the persistence about the importance of patterning by those more knowledgable about SG's than me, I'm starting to really grasp the importance of that.

Experiences like those of SquirrelNuts helps illustrate why it's important. Just imagine if those dogs had been six javelina that kept on coming. Every shot counts.

 

[AStone]

javelinas or entelodonts (i'll take javelinas)

Speaking of javelinas...

I never had an encounter with one or more when living in NM & AZ a decade ago, but I did have an encounter with some kind of wild pigs back in TN a couple of decades ago. My dog apparently went after the piglets, and momma got pretty mad. I've never run that fast before while wearing a 40 lb. pack.

But my "favorite" pigs, the entelodonts are no longer found on Earth. They are extinct, but we find their fossils near where I live, over in eastern OR. They lived around 25 - 30 million years ago. Some grew to the size of rhinos, with heads up to 39" long.

According to an interpretive sign in the John Day Beds Nat'l Monument, Oregon, they were omnivores, feeding on vegetation, carcasses and "any smaller mammals that happened to get in their way".

But wait, I'd have been a small mammal compared to one of those.

If I'd have lived back then (which was WAY before humans came along), I'd have probably enjoyed having a 12 ga with lots and lots and lots of 00 & slugs.

 

[roo_ster]

Rhino Pigs?!?!

Man, that would surely change my reaction when a buddy says, "I smell bacon!"

**********

I'm thinking that no/few pellets hit doggie, due to patterning & distance issues.

The dogs were charging, you wrote. That is a good reason (along with unfamiliarity with the equipment?) to miss.

Glad you survived to tell the "tail." Let's hope those doggies are put down real quick-like.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I have seen plastic wads remain in shotgun wounds in humans that were inflicted at ranges measured in mere feet. These were all from birdshot loads, not buckshot. At very close/contact range, wads might even exit, as demonstrated by the forensic report below:
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html

The frequency of reports of failure of birdshot loads, even at close range, to neutralize an individual is the reason I prefer buckshot loads or slugs for defensive shotguns. See the following:
http://www.examiner.com.au/print.asp?id=236674

Other reports of wads in wounds:
http://www.huseby.com/Death/Jan23.html
http://www.rherald.com/News/2002/1205/Front_Page/f03.html
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/llb/gunshot.htm#Shotgun Wounds
http://www.courts.state.va.us/txtops/1982055.txt

I find it unlikely that the dogs were hit with buckshot loads at ranges close enough to lodge the wads in their bodies and yet still ran away. In dealing with feral dogs attacking our cattle I had to shoot several of the attacking dogs with a shotgun. I never had a failure to stop/failure to kill with standard velocity loads of buckshot at ranges out to about 25 yards. Note that these dogs were not gunshy and were not afraid of humans, intent as they were on attacking the cattle. Eventually the remainder of the pack did learn to fear people and resort had to be made to centerfire rifles with telescopic sights to eliminate them.

Shotgun patterns at close range tend to be small, and it is easier to miss completely with small patterns- especially on moving targets and in adrenaline enhanced situations. The pic of the dogwood tree is a good indication of size of patterns at the ranges indicated. I am glad our member survived the encounter unscathed and hope the experience is not repeated.

lpl/nc

 

[charby]

I have done a ton of hunting and shot a lot of critters big and small at close and far ranges with a shot gun and have never found a wad in any body.

I have though as gross as this sounds shot a rabbits head back into its body at 5 feet with #6 shot in a 2 3/4 highbrass 12 guage shell, but no wad to be found. I had thought I shot the head complety off but when I dressed the animal the head was blown back into the chest cavity.

I have shot deer with slugs that went through the animal, taking part for the spine with it. One year I had a slug go through the shoulder blade, tear both lungs and get stopped by the other shoulder blade. I know its gross but shotguns can do plenty of bodily damage at a close range.

I bet you both of those dogs got hit and are probably dead somewhere, lived on pure adrenaline until they died. My experiences with deer hunting is that shot deer will keep running after its dead on adrenaline. I imagine the same for the dogs just because they were in attack mode.

Charby