Defense against animals: HP vs FMJ ?

[Alan Fud]

In my neck of the woods I'm just as likely (or even more likely) to face a threat from a four-legged attacker than I am from a two-legged attacker. Given the same caliber, would a FMJ/cast round be more effective gainst animals than HP ammo?

 

[Pilot]

I'm not expert, but from what I hear a FMJ would be better for penetration on animals. I typically carry 9MM or .45 and if I'm in the woods, I usually have FMJ. It will be interesting to hear what others have to say.

Edit: I just read Mr. Camp's fine article on hunting Javelina. He used hollow points exclusively. So, I'm curious too. It may depend on what kind of animal.

 

[whm1974]

which four-legged is most likly to be a threat/problem where you are at?

Are you plan on using a rifle or handgun(or both)?

-Bill

 

[J. Parker]

The general consensus is that a FMJ/hardcast/softpoint bullet is better than any fancy pants hollowpoint. I've been camping, fishing, and general woods bumming since the early seventies from southern Cal to the Pacific Northwest and everything in-between and I can't remember ever carrying a handgun with hollowpoint ammo. Penetration, penetration and more penetration is the key. If you over-penetrate there is no danger anyway.
You don't want a hollowpoint to stop after 10 or 12 inches when you shoot a 300 pound blackie. Aren't the black bears pretty good size in PA? No matter what handgun you carry in the woods chances are the Buffalo Bore folks have a good load for your piece. Expensive yes but you'll never buy more than one box of a specific calibre from them anyway.
FWIW here's my thoughts.......A 9mm pistol has no business in the woods.......only 357 mag/40cal or above........FMJ/hardcast/softpoint ammo only........quality, proven, recommended "bear spray" is handy........a quality hunting/bowie knife with an eight-inch blade or better on your belt just behind your holster........don't laugh at this next one.........an SKS with bayonet!........
After years and years of carrying just about every different kind of handgun there is I've settled on a 4" 357 magnum. The last couple of summers I've carried a 4" 357 with Federal's 180gr Castcores with a 6" hunting knife which I'm upgrading this year. I like to remote camp so I always have a short-barreled shotgun or 30-30 as a "camp gun". Good luck and most of all have fun........Best, J. Parker

 

[dolanp]

Since when is the anatomy of a four-legged animal so fundamentally different from a human that all ideas of HP being appropriate for stopping a threat go out the window? It seems to me that an animal is less likely to be stopped by a FMJ round because it tends to go right through the animal and they may not know they've even been hit and will keep charging at you. It will not expend its energy on target. Now if you are carrying a rifle that's another matter, though I've seen plenty of deer hit with .308 Wins only to watch them run a few hundred yards. If that deer was a bear and he was running at you instead of away from you that wouldn't be so good.

 

[Alan Fud]

which four-legged is most likly to be a threat/problem where you are at?

Lehigh Valley, PA. When I venture into town (which is less than a 10 minute drive away), I'm loaded up with HP's but my backyard (and sideyard) boarders about 40-50 acres of wooded area. Seen foxes and coyotes. Heard wolves (or, maybe distant neighbor dogs) howling and my neighbor across the field claims to have seen a bear on his property.

Are you plan on using a rifle or handgun(or both)?

Just curious what I would be better off with loaded in my CCW when I'm on or around my property.

You don't want a hollowpoint to stop after 10 or 12 inches when you shoot a 300 pound blackie. Aren't the black bears pretty good size in PA?

That's what I hear. Haven't yet seen one myself to either confirm or deny it.

A 9mm pistol has no business in the woods.......only 357 mag/40cal or above........FMJ/hardcast/softpoint ammo only........quality, proven, recommended "bear spray" is handy

When I venture into the woods, I bring bear spray and my 686+ but when I'm in my backyard, I'm usually just armed with my SP101.

 

[Chipperman]

I lived in Bethlehem, PA for four years. It is also in the Lehigh Valley.
I never heard of anyone seeing a wild bear in the Southern part of the valley. The Northern part may be another story.

There are certainly a lot of Coyotes there, but no wild wolves that I am aware of.

Load up for the two-legged predators, and you should be fine for any four-legged ones that you may run across,

 

[J. Parker]

IMO, a 357 magnum or a Glock 20 (10mm) are just about perfect woods guns. The 686+ is nice with one extra round and being an L frame can handle magnums better than the K frames. Ruger GP100's can eat magnum ammo all day long. "Practice with 38's but stoke it with magnums" just doesn't make sense. If you're going to shoot magnums by golly practice with 'em too.

 

[Alan Fud]

Chipperman, I've over in Foglesville, near the game preserve, off of PA-100, north of I-78.

 

[WT]

You are more likely to meet Crips and Bloods in NE PA.

Been to the Starlight recently?

 

[Alan Fud]

I just got here LAST summer (summer of 2003 -- the sumer before the previous summer ) and I don't even know what the "Starlight" is? Indoor range?

 

[WT]

The Starlight is a nice diner, across the street from the old brewery.

 

[Dr.Rob]

FMJ's aren't for hunting OR defense.

Depending on thesize of critter involved, I'd suggest a 158 gr SWC hollow point and a 357 magnum unless you are talking about really big bears. In which case, put 180 gr soft points on the cylinder.

If bears aren't a concern... any defensive hand gun, 9mm or above loaded with a good quality HP will do.

Coyotes aren't that hard to kill.

 

[TallPine]

Well, I carry 158gr JSP in my 357 mag.

I'll let you know how it works out if I ever shoot anything bigger than a porcupine.

 

[Chipperman]

"Foglesville, near the game preserve, off of PA-100, north of I-78."

I doubt that you'll run into any bears there, but keep us posted.

 

[yesterdaysyouth]

i had a dream this afternoon.....


i was walking through an open field, which isn't uncommon, when a coyote came up from behind me and bit me right on my @ss.... like i said this was a dream.... anyway it must of held on cause i was able to turn around, draw my p228 and fire a round into it's chest, took it down instantly..

....the p228 is loaded with 147gr. silvertips, so this isn't a complete hijack....

for whatever reason i keep on walking just like nothing happened and i can see another yote in front of me, coming straight in... having actually hunted and observed many of these animals i knew that this wasn't right.... as it closed in i could see this thing was huge!! for a doggie anyway, we'll say 80lbs... what went on next was strange, i unholstered my weapon and waited until he stopped moving so fast and took a shot, i think the first half of the mag i never landed a hit... finally the first shot just bounced off and hit the ground, like i was shooting a steel plate, uuuughhh.... well that just made him mad, ol' doggie had stopped moving and was staring and growling at me like "now you gotsa die!"... seeing as how the target was still i took another shot, this one bounced off his eye!!! at this point my buddy come rolling up behind me in his truck and the dog took off....

i guess he knew a 9mm hollowpoint was nothing, but a 1 ton ford was not to be messed with...

so just remember normal dream coyotes are just as easy to take down as the real thing ... but the BIG dream coyotes are made of hardend steel!!!

 

[PowderBurn]

Since when is the anatomy of a four-legged animal so fundamentally different from a human that all ideas of HP being appropriate for stopping a threat go out the window?

Bear skulls and shoulders are much more massive than those of a human. And they don't run at you on their hind legs to offer a better shot at vulnerable organs.

If you don't know what you're most likely to encounter, you could alternate HP, JSP, FMJ, or cast in the cylinder or magazine to find a recipe you are comfortable with.

 

[Fumbler]

It seems to me that an animal is less likely to be stopped by a FMJ round because it tends to go right through the animal and they may not know they've even been hit and will keep charging at you.

A small hole through the lung is better than a cracked shoulder.
If I had a choice of FJM vs HP for any outdoors defensive situation it would be the FMJ.
I'll take a sure hole over shallow energy dump.

Since when do wildlife care if they've been hit by a bullet?
If you're a predator that's engaging what you believe is trying to kill you would you stop to think about whether or not there's a hole in you?
I would probably be thinking "ohh crap, I'd better kill this thing before it kills me."

Having said that, I think what you carry depends on what you expect to encounter and what caliber you're toting.
I don't have any sizable predators in my area of the woods, so I use hollow points in my 9mm with a spare mag full of FMJ. I'm more likely to encounter a human or dog, so the hollow points should work well. If I haven't stopped a human threat with a full mag of HP then it's likly behind cover, so FMJ in the extra mag makes sense. If there were heavier predators around I'd load with a couple of hollow points and the rest of the mag would be FMJ...or I'd just bring my 357 (which is the biggest handgun I have).

If I was in an area with (black) bears I'll bring my 357mag and load it with half 158gr Hornady XTP and half 180gr Win Partitions.
Anything bigger and I'd buy some hardcast Buffalo Bore.

 

[SapperLeader]

Imp a little bit confused, we say don’t use fmj on 2 legged critters for defense, we don’t say use fmj on critters for hunting, but it’s a good idea to use fmj on 4 legged critters in a defensive situation? . My feelings are if it’s a good bullet construction for soft tissue, it doesn’t matter what you’re shooting.

I live in northern Virginia, so most of my woods time I would be more worried about 2 legged predators than 4. I usually carry 124 +P 9mm. I would like to get a .357 or .45acp revolver to replace the 9mm, and I will carry a good hollow point bullet in that case too.

Ball ammo tends to not be very effective on anything but tin cans and paper targets. It might work, but its design is to poke a hole in something and keep going. Personally I’m going to carry a better designed bullet than fmj, but your results may vary.

 

[shooterrick1]

2 or 4 legged don't matter in the woods

.....I learned a long time ago to never go in the woods without a big bore revolver. We have bears and drug makers, etc around our game lands in Northwest Pa. Even a 1 ton Ford has been stopped by a round or 2 of hard cast 44mags. Leave the FMJ to the military and JHP for in town use...jmho

 

[Feanaro]

we don’t say use fmj on critters for hunting,

But we are speaking of RIFLE calibers when we say that. A handgun, obviously, isn't a rifle. Different power levels.

My feelings are if it’s a good bullet construction for soft tissue, it doesn’t matter what you’re shooting.

But a bear isn't as soft and pudgy as, say, WildAlaska. There is a difference between bears and humans. An upright human(Default position) charging you presents everything from leg to head as a potential target. A bear presents his head, shoulders, front legs, and part of his chest(You know, what with that whole quadruped thing going on) as a target. The shoulders and head have large, tough bones. http://www.schuylkill-outdoors.com/pics/anatomydb.gif

The leg bones can also get in the way. Whether FMJs would penetrate those bones is debatable. But there is a fair amount of meat between the mouth end(the end facing you) and the organs. And JHPs penetrate less than FMJs by design, right?

 

[sm]

Depends on the critter , and shot placement of course.

That said, I usually tote a mag with hardball , or a speedloader with hardcast.
Then again one spare mag for my CCW is hardball as well.

Handgun hunting I normally use a good JHP , JSP depeniding on critter and caliber.

For instance a 158gr LSWC HP [ standard or + P ] will take down a rabid 70# dog, from a 4" mokdel 10 or 3"RB model 64.

I have also taken from 50# to a bit over 100# rabid dogs with 9mm 115 FMJ, JHP, though I prefer the 124gr variety better. Just my luck I used the 115gr hardball on the biggest critter from a Keltec P-11 in that pack. The BHP with 124gr and the 1911...oh they were in the vehicle along with the shotgun....

The 1911 using 230 gr FMJ stopped the rabid dog as did the 230 JHP {SXT}. I shot both of these aiming for the ears .

Main concern - gun must be reliable with ammo,and mags. Shot placement is the key.

Don't wonder around back to holler at the farmer and leave the other guns in the vehicle...one never knows the where or when ...as CRSam says. At least I had the Keltec P-11.

sheesh - that was dumb.

 

[mete]

Chances of being attacked by animals is very small. The exceptions would be rabies and a pack of feral dogs ,both of those I shoot on sight ! As for bears ,I've met black bears in NY and PA face to face and they ignored me. I carry in the woods but for the dogs or people but I have only shot things near my house. Just take your favorite anti personnel JHP. BTW in the last two years the top bears taken in PA topped 800 lbs !!! Try not to look like a ham sandwich !!

 

[Chuck Perry]

I would recommend a good FMJ or hard cast bullet, heavy for caliber. Penetration over expansion. That said, if you have an auto why not do an experiment and help settle this? Stagger load your magazines with alternating FMJ and HP rounds. Fill your pants pockets with fresh ground beef and go for a woods walk about an hour after dark. Let us know which round has the best effect.

 

[HighVelocity]

When the family goes camping I take a rifle and secondly a Glock 10mm.

IF, I was unable to use the rifle and had to go for the glock against a mean critter, I think 15 rounds of Corbon would have some effect on it.