Are hollowpoints over-rated?

Are Hollowpoints Over-rated?

  • HP's are OVER-rated - should be used less

    Votes: 36 21.3%
  • HP's are Fairly rated

    Votes: 108 63.9%
  • HP's are UNDER-rated - should be used more

    Votes: 25 14.8%

  • Total voters
    169
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Excuse me gents, but my remarks about fmj being out of the question are in regards to North American game and centerfire rifles. However, fmj bullets are also not too nifty in a handgun.

I figured I might get flamed by people who don't hunt and really have no idea of what is legal and what is not. FMJ bullets are not legal to hunt big game with in any of the western states, period. You can argue the legalities if you want, but the statutes are pretty clear. Gee it feels good to be right for a change. :neener:
 
True enough, and as someone else (Blues Bear?) mentioned, there is a significant difference in profile between FMJ and a well-designed cast hunting bullet.

In a nutshell: hunting large edible game in the US with FMJ (excepting something like Federal EFMJ, which is designed, of course, to expand) is stupid and illegal.

John
 
I am still using JHP bullets for my CCW ammo.

Besides, if a JHP cavity gets clogged with denim, leather, or some other barrier then it becomes a FMJ to a point, right?;)
 
Yup. Some good recent bullet developments- EFMJ especially comes to mind- have overcome this, though.
 
Any of you ever hunted Africa?
Plenty of FMJ used there and I'm not talking about big round nosed stoppers.

If you haven't shot any game with FMJ, you will be very surprised what it does to game, They do not always make a through and through and half the time when they do, they come out sideways, which makes a very nasty PERMANENT WOUND CAVITY as opposed to the TEMPORARY WOUND CAVITY that most Hp's make.

As for cast not expanding, that's hooey. Totally dependant on impact velocity. A 311291 hitting above 2000fps is devastating on the chest cavity of a deer, with the nose blowing away to the first driving band. Of course the base keeps flying right on through. The harder the alloy the worse the effect. Done in a lot of deer with them.

Sam
 
Sorry fellas, I should have been more clear in my intent on this thread. I was refering to handguns, and the use of HP's vs FMJ for self defense, not hunting. Of course the self-defense part still applies to animals, so we can include them too of course. :)
 
Carbonator,

1. FMJ can have better penetration, but most JHP also penetrate well. One thing to keep in mind, is you need a balance between penetration, and energy transfer.

True. For me personally I give a little more importance to penetration than expansion.
2. FMJ bullets do not feed 'better'.
I disagree. The round nose allows for better feeding. Does it always make a difference? No. But any increase on reliability of a defensive hangun - I'll take it.
3. Where did you ever hear that FMJ bullets are 'better against animals'? This may be true if you are talking Rhinos or Buffalo, but certainly incorrect in most cases. Almost all of America and Europe bans FMJ bullets from being used in hunting.
Pretty common to hear FMJ used for animals over HP, from my experience at least. I wasn't refering to hunting laws, just self defense.
4. What the military uses in a rifle has little bearing on what you should use. Small units that matter, don't use FMJ in their handguns.
Handguns, not rifles. I don't discredit large military units.
5. Why do you equate penetration with accuracy. False again. With handguns, the myth of 'overpenetration' is pretty much that, but with rifles, FMJ will exit as often as not. Hey, its probably YOUR family that would be harmed, so its your choice
Didn't say FMJ is more accurate, I compared the possibility of shooting a bystander from overpenetration vs missing the target. Putting the BG down quickly from a more lethal bullet is more important than the nil chance of them being hit with my bullets.
6. is to convoluted to even discuss.
Ok.
In short, I think none of your statements hold up to scrutiny.
Nothing wrong with a little friendly debate... ;)
 
Friendly debate is fine, but some of you guys can be just down right rude. Such is the nature of Internet anonymity.

FWIW, experience has shown (in my home state) that the best handgun bullet for killing critters with large bore revolvers of the .41 mag or .44 mag variety is a heavy jacketed bullet with a soft exposed lead nose. FMJ handgun bullets are not allowed. SO much for killing animals.

I have very little first hand experience in killing humans with handgun rounds. All I can do is to rely on what the so called experts have come up with. As we all know, law enforcement agencies all over the country have migrated to hollow point bullets. I assume those agencies, with their thousands of officer involved shooting cases, have an idea what they are talking about. I won't pretend to know more about bullet construction than those folks who study ballistics, wound channels, etc. for a living.

I don't think hollow points are over rated and I carry 115 Corbon in my 9mm and 230 HydraShok in my .45 auto. I can think of no good reason to switch to FMJ.

Carbonator:

All serious handgun enthusiasts who pack a pistol know that conventional wisdom tells us a quality hollow point round that feeds reliably is a very good choice. Anyone who would try to convince the masses to revert back to FMJ is certainly swimming against the current and should expect a lot of "friendly debate". Knock yourself out.
 
1. FMJ = better penetration. Penetration seems to be the top indicator of bullet effectiveness after accuracy. Most bullets need to go through bone or clothing before they get to the vitals.

Many hollowpoints provide plenty of penetration for use on humans AND expand.

2. FMJ = feeds more reliably

This isn't 1980... both the hollowpoints and guns have changed, and nothing about sticking a hole at the end of a bullet makes it less feed-reliable per se. Most modern hollowpoints have equal feed reliability to JHPs in modern guns, and most modern guns can't tell the difference between a modern hollowpoint and FMJ. Furthermore, not all brands of FMJ are equally reliable in all guns anyway, so either way you have to test the specific brand of ammo in the specific gun to know if it is realiable... and if both FMJ and JHP pass 100%, you can't say that FMJ is more reliable "just because."

3. FMJ = better against animals. Humans are animals and wear leather jackets, heavy coats, denim, and hide behind walls and auto glass. FMJ is multi-use for both humans and animals.

Apples and oranges. Most animals that people hunt are much bigger and physically tougher than humans are.

4. FMJ = military chooses FMJ

Because of their interpretation of international law, not because they think FMJ works better. Agencies that have a CHOICE (e.g. law enforcement, SWAT, counter-terrorist types) all go with... hollowpoints.

5. FMJ = overpenetration overrated? hitting bystanders overrated? Accuracy seems much much more important in preventing innocent people getting hit. Even then the chances are nil.

Just because you discount out of hand it doesn't mean it doesn't happen out in the real world. One of the primary motives cited by law enforcement agencies for going with hollowpoints has been... overpenetration and injury of innocent bystanders. Does it happen alot? No. Are you responsible for what is behind your target? Yes.

6. FMJ = victim of the dollar? Is FMJ given a bad rap from companies marketing hollowpoint designs? All FMJ is pretty much the same and companies cannot differentiate and market FMJ like they can HP's. Hollowpoints are heavily designed/patented and marketed to differentiate from other companies products. Is the huge move to HP's because of real effectiveness or because of marketing "gimmick" and percieved need to have the "latest and greatest design"? Is it all about the money?

In one sense... duh. Ammo companies are in business to make money. However, the preponderance of the volume of ammo they move is FMJ, and that is going to stay that way since most ammo is shot for practice or just for fun. The ratio of FMJ to hollowpoints shot is probalby about 1,000:20. So a vast anti-FMJ conspiracy by greed freak ammo companies seems a bit silly.
 
I am suprised that no one so far has brought up the topic of ricochets.

While any bullet can ricochet, FMJ is more likely to than HP due the the nose profile and surface hardness.

A bullet that totally penetrates it's target still has some momentum (and lethality) remaining. A bullet that misses it's intended target retains ALL of it's momentum until it finds another target.
 
Mmmmmmm...............maybe. I think they are overrated in some aspects, the most notable one being the idea that the most recent super-duper hollowpoint design on the market will make up for lousy marksmanship. I think a lot of discussion is focused on the equipment rather than the skills needed to use it.

That being said, I think that good hollowpoints should be used more, but even military FMJ can be made to perform. I recall reading an account of a South African or Rhodesian guy who dropped three of his enemy with three shots with a 9mm.

BTW, has anyone else read up on the "blended-metal"ammunition that the SF guys are trying to get?

ANM
 
Ok point by point.

SNIP
1. FMJ = better penetration. Penetration seems to be the top indicator of bullet effectiveness after accuracy. Most bullets need to go through bone or clothing before they get to the vitals.
END

First off quality jhp's offer plenty of penetration. Penetration in and of itself is not a indicator of good stopping power. 38 roundnosed lead is a terrible load that penetrates very deep. Next heavy clothing makes jhp's go deeper not more shallow. This is simple. The clothing slows expansion hence the bullet goes deeper. Jhp's also are more likely to dig into the bone rather than simple glance off.

SNIP
2. FMJ = feeds more reliably
END

If your gun can't feed JHP's buy a new gun.

SNIP
3. FMJ = better against animals. Humans are animals and wear leather jackets, heavy coats, denim, and hide behind walls and auto glass. FMJ is multi-use for both humans and animals.
END

FMJ's are better against some animals that are thick skinned and built on solid muscle. On some animals they are a poor choice as they just zip through.

SNIP
4. FMJ = military chooses FMJ
END

They don't chose it they are required to use it for humane reasons required by the hauge accords. Counter Terrorism units use JHP's.

SNIP
5. FMJ = overpenetration overrated? hitting bystanders overrated? Accuracy seems much much more important in preventing innocent people getting hit. Even then the chances are nil.
END

Wrong NYPD hit many people and killed a few with bullets that went though the intended bad guy.

SNIP
6. FMJ = victim of the dollar? Is FMJ given a bad rap from companies marketing hollowpoint designs? All FMJ is pretty much the same and companies cannot differentiate and market FMJ like they can HP's. Hollowpoints are heavily designed/patented and marketed to differentiate from other companies products. Is the huge move to HP's because of real effectiveness or because of marketing "gimmick" and percieved need to have the "latest and greatest design"? Is it all about the money?
END

If you like bigger bullets you should like JHP's. Shooting a 45 jhp is like shooting a .79 acp. Shooting a 9mm jhp is like shooting a .65 jhp. Bigger is better.
Pat
 
In a military sense, penetration is everything. Badguys wear armor, helmets, and hide behind logs and other cover. THAT is one of the primary reasons that militaries wise to stick with FMJ ammo.

This is less applicable in pistols, but it still applies. In a self-defense situation, you're probably not going to be shooting at someone hiding behind cover, or firing through a wall to get someone hiding on the other side. Soldiers do it all the time.

Also, I don't see why anyone assumes that a well designed hunting bullet can't be given a copper jacket and thus become FMJ. I mean, FMJ does not mean "round nosed". It means the bullet has a metal jacket. Nothing more, nothing less.

I've seen FMJ ammo deform mightily when firing through logs. South African .308 seems to separate the bulk of the bullet from the jacket and comes out all twisted in bent, when firing through a roughly 8" diameter log. Note though that a log provides much more resistance than a person's chest. Also note that the South African stuff is not really military FMJ, it's commercial, and is loaded more lightly than NATO spec. I'd really like to try a hot-loaded, 168 grain steel-cored bullet, but such things are illegal nowadays.

I don't like the way the poll is worded. I do think that JHP ammo is overrated, but that's not to say I think it's inferior to ball ammo and should be used less. It offers somewhat of an advantage when it works like it should, but the advantage is NOT great enough to say that FMJ ammo is useless as many seem to. Note that many, many people have been killed with FMJ, and yes, many of them were shot only once.

As I've said before, a larger or expanding bullet gives you a wider margin of error (that is to say, they might hit something that a smaller projectile might miss) but they're not going to make up for a grazing shot or a miss. They also (and this is important) will not make up for an under-powered cartridge. People here say that all handgun rounds suck that they're all underpowered. By that reasoning, more power can only be better, so long as it's not too much for you to comfortably shoot. Yet you hear people saying that such and such type loads are "too much" for self-defense purposes. It's only too much if the recoil/blast is so great that it affects your ability to shoot well.

You seem to get people that think of JHP ammo as a sort of death ray. I did a poll once, to see if not having JHP ammo would change your handgun choices. A LOT of 9mm fans said they'd stop carrying their wondernines. That, in my opinion, is flawed thinking. If you're not confident in the gun with FMJ ammo, then switching to JHP shouldn't in of itself change your mind, because while it can make a larger wound channel the difference is not so great that it'll turn a mousegun into a super-magnum.

In other words, if you can shoot well with a 9x19mm pistol, then carry a 9x19mm pistol, regardless of whether it's loaded with FMJ or JHP.

As for JHP ammo limiting "overpenetration"...blah. Police officers, statistically, miss their targets a lot more than they hit them, so the type of ammo they're using should be the least of their gun-related concerns. A missed shot flying downrange is more dangerous than a hit that goes through a badguy first.
 
A LOT of 9mm fans said they'd stop carrying their wondernines. That, in my opinion, is flawed thinking. If you're not confident in the gun with FMJ ammo, then switching to JHP shouldn't in of itself change your mind, because while it can make a larger wound channel the difference
END

No its good thinking as 9mm fmj is a .355 caliber hole in the body. While a jhp is a .65 caliber hole or better.

Not all police hit ratios are poor. We here in Alaska do well. With the Alaska State Troopers and The Anchorage Police Department averaging over 90%.
Pat
 
Hollow points: LE View

Law Enforcement uses hollow point ammunition for the safety of the police officers and civilians as well. Multiple officers respond to "in progress" armed felon calls..in the past, from East Coast to West, both fellow police officers and civilians have been injurred and KILLED by bouncing 9mm FMJ bullets. This is what convinced NYPD and LAPD to go hollow point ammo...NYPD had 9mm FMJ beans from Glocks bouncing all over in subway shootings. We were happy to go from wheel guns (revolvers) to auto's (self-loading semi-auto handguns) but FMJ ammo fails to dump its energy and keeps on penetrating. Even early Win 9mm Silvertips just kept on going.
Hollow points of todays modern design, like Gold Dots, reliably expand after penetration and transfer more energy (lerger temporary wound chanel) and ideally will not exit the human body. If you are a LEO or a civilian CCW..this is most important. Put the bullet into the intended target with maximum stopping power and contain the bullet inside the bad guy.
If the bullet exits the bad guy..you have a new and continuing problem...and attached liabilities. FMJ is fine practice ammo for target or plinking but has no place as a self defense round. The liability out weighs the dollars saved. Smart PD's use a training round of the same bullet weight and velocity for training, to duplicate the recoil impulse and point of impact of their duty HP ammo. Smart agencies shoot the same HP ammo ALL the time. It costs less in court.
Remember "If you bring a handgun to a gun fight you didn't plan well "
 
I like JHPs for personal defense, with two notable exceptions:

1) At very low speeds, plain lead hollowpoints sometimes work better (the classic 38+P LSWC-HP from a 2" barrel and it's cousins in 44Spl, etc).

2) Cor-Bon's Pow'R'Ball appears to be basically a "clog-proof JHP" and may herald the eventual demise of the open-hollow JHP. Federal's E-FMJ would hold more promise if it was driven faster; once the initial patent runs out, we'll see interesting variants. At present, the only place I'd like to see the design used is in 38+P as a "snubbie solution) but Federal isn't supporting revolver calibers at all. (Cor-Bon is promising to eventually port the Pow'R'Ball to wheelguns.)

On critters, Hornady's XTP has merit in a lot of calibers. The jacket is tougher than average, it punches deeper than most JHPs and doesn't expand as wide as most other designs. It basically splits the difference between hardcast flatnose performance and JHPs.

In some case, you're going up against a critter that needs "deep punch" and you've barely got enough horsepower to get by - the 357Mag on large boar is an example, or 44Mag carried as Griz defense. In that case, hardcast flatnose is the way to go...forget expansion entirely, just do a big heavy "slap" and *penetrate*.

The only role I can see for FMJ roundnose is when you've got a 45ACP that isn't feeding anything else. The old 45 is fat enough that it works OK without expanding...but that's by no means optimal.
 
I think they are over-rated.
You make the correlation between hunting and self-defense. Many, and possibly most serious handgun hunters use cast bullets. They expect no expansion. They have found that having a big wide meplat as close to full bullet diameter is what makes an effective killer. Penetration is not an issue.
Then we have self defense handguns. We agonize endlessly over bullet expansion. There is no end to the discussion about what bullet to use in short barrels because we H A V E to have an expanding jacketed bullet. Let's not be bothered with any of the technology developed by hunters that actually shoot flesh and blood animals with these bullets: enough to actually make reasonable decisions about what works. Instead, let's argue about which study is the correct one. Did the Strasborg goat test actually take place..................................... But, if 10,000 hunters use a given bullet to shoot 10,000 big game animals we have to dismiss that information as irrelevant.
Obviously one reason for this is that these bullets won't feed though a automatic pistol.
 
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You make the correlation between hunting and self-defense. Many, and possibly most serious handgun hunters use cast bullets. They expect no expansion. They have found that having a big wide meplat as close to full bullet diameter is what makes an effective killer. Penetration is not an issue
END

Lets see in self defense were trying to make as large a hole as possible and stop the threat now. Shot placement is critical but often stress and other variables make it difficult. Hunting we have an animal that can't shoot back is in the position we chose and were trying to save meat. ALso we like blood trails so we can follow it to where it dies.

Edited to remove offending remarks. Sorry about that.
Pat
 
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Great comeback, Pat. Mocking somebody always adds much to an intelligent discussion amongst adults.

The point was valid, although the way of doing so was not. Hunting experience shows how bullets work on living tissue, which has some predictive value of how a round works on humans. However, there is no correlation between hunting and self-defense as the goals are completely different. You want a blood trail with an animal so that you can track it if necessary. You also have a far greater opportunity to pick your shot.
 
But, if 10,000 hunters use a given bullet to shoot 10,000 big game animals we have to dismiss that information as irrelevant.

Most handgun hunters that I know use hollowpoints. The only ones who don't use blackpowder pistols where HPs are contraindicated due to design.

Personally, I'll take the advice of counterterrorist units and cops around the world. They use hollowpoints when they can. It seems that there is a stronger correlation between what they do and my self-defense needs than shooting an animal who doesn't know I'm there.
 
"Lets see in self defense were trying to make as large a hole as possible and stop the threat now. "

Ah, maybe you haven't done much hunting, but this is exactly the goal of any shot, fired at any living target. You want as big a hole as possible, and you want it to drop in it's tracks if possible. In self defense you want the target to no longer present a threat, in hunting you want to be able to find the animal with a minimum of tracking not to mention being humane and in some cases not to present a threat.
In any handgun load you are looking for two things: you want the biggest hole possible, along with adequate penetration (sound familiar). It is also very highly unlikely that a human is going to drop in his tracks due to the effect of a handgun bullet (no matter how much you believe this from your TV and movie viewing). With the lighter calibers from 9mm on down we have a problem. Penetration is marginal. We may or may not have adequate penetration depending on many factors such as the angle of the target to the shooter, the distance from the shooter to the target, what the target is wearing, and of course what load/bullet the shooter is firing. We also for some reason place bullet expanision on a pedestal as the most important goal of a bullet while knowing that a rapidly expanding bullet limits penetration severely. We seem to lose sight of the fact that a perfectly expanded bullet that doesn't reach the vitals is far less effective than a bullet that doesn't expand at all which does reach the vitals. In heavy calibers , this isnt' an issue we can have our cake and eat it too. In .44 Magnum we can shoot a violently expanding hollow point that will still go right through both sides of the target. But with the calibers 9mm and below (what a great many people carry for personal defense-people that are private citizens carrying concealed and not uniformed officers carrying openly), especially out of short barreled handguns, we have to ask ourselves if we have enough penetration to even reach the vitals from any angle presented - in some calibers we have to ask if we can reach the vitals with a shot against a target in standard anatomical position, let alone have an exit wound. We are asking ourselves if the bullet will penetrate the skull. We also talk endlessly about instant incapacitation which is only possible with a hit to the CNS which requires penetration of the skull, or complete penetration of the torso from a frontal shot. To me, all this adds up to the fact that penetration is of paramount importance and expansion is of secondary importance in these marginal calibers (yes, if you are using a .475 Linebaugh you don't need to worry about achieving adequate penetration, but in a .38 Special belly gun, or a .32 ACP or a .380 ACP......... you do). It has long ago been proven that a round nose design is a very poor performer on flesh. It is possibly the worst anti-personel or hunting bullet ever designed. So what other bullet design gives us maximum penetration for the caliber, yet offer greater performance on target than a round nosed bullet ?

It seems to me that another aspect of handgun use asks the same question; I need a bullet that will be used against a living target. All animals operate on the same principal: kept the blood in and the air out. Reversing this process by letting the blood out and the air in results in death. In order to achieve this, I need adequate penetration to reach the vitals from any angle presented and at any reasonable range that I can hit the target since I have no idea where or how the shot is going to present itself. I want it to go down as fast as possible so I can limit the animals suffering, so I can find the animal, and in some cases so the animal doesn't kill me. Expansion is nice, but of secondary importance; the bullet MUST reach the vital organs. The answer to this question was discovered at least 75 years ago. It has proven itself thousands of times each and every year. Over the years we have tweeked the basic design a little bit, but the way it works is well known.

"It seems that there is a stronger correlation between what they do and my self-defense needs "
I disagree. A couterterrorism force is an offensive force. They arn't carrying marginal, concealed handguns usually, they are carrying full sized service handguns openly on their belt in additon to rifles, shotguns and submachine guns. It would be nice if we all could do this, but realistically we as civilians have to carry concealed which often means small handguns lacking in horsepower. On another note, I have seen the result more than once of police shootings. They usually arn't something I would hold up as an example of perfect, ideal bullet performance; maybe we actually have something to learn about effective bullet design.
 
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