Are hollowpoints over-rated?

[Carbonator]

Are hollowpoints the end-all of bullet design? I am again reconsidering this view...

1. FMJ = better penetration. Penetration seems to be the top indicator of bullet effectiveness after accuracy. Most bullets need to go through bone or clothing before they get to the vitals.

2. FMJ = feeds more reliably

3. FMJ = better against animals. Humans are animals and wear leather jackets, heavy coats, denim, and hide behind walls and auto glass. FMJ is multi-use for both humans and animals.

4. FMJ = military chooses FMJ

5. FMJ = overpenetration overrated? hitting bystanders overrated? Accuracy seems much much more important in preventing innocent people getting hit. Even then the chances are nil.

6. FMJ = victim of the dollar? Is FMJ given a bad rap from companies marketing hollowpoint designs? All FMJ is pretty much the same and companies cannot differentiate and market FMJ like they can HP's. Hollowpoints are heavily designed/patented and marketed to differentiate from other companies products. Is the huge move to HP's because of real effectiveness or because of marketing "gimmick" and percieved need to have the "latest and greatest design"? Is it all about the money?

 

[TheeBadOne]

Best of both worlds?

Corbon Powerball

http://mysite.elixirlabs.com/index.php?uid=12665&page=1607

 

[Langenator]

The primary reason that the military uses FMJ ammo is because of the way they interpret the Hauge Convention prohibitions on weapons/ammo that are designed to wound, or cause "pain and suffering."

Cost is also probably a factor. When you're buying millions of rounds a year, even .5 cents a shot adds up.

 

[DMK]

It depends

I wouldn't say that HPs are over rated, but I think that it is dangerous to asume that HPs are always better than FMJ and likewise it is just as dangerous to assume that FMJs are always better than HPs.

It depends on the caliber, bullet weight, bullet design and most importantly, the intended use.

For self defense there are many good performing HPs in anything over 9mm or .38 Special. I use FMJ for anything under that.

But with some rounds such as .380, 9x18 and maybe even 32ACP, I believe that with enough velocity and a good bullet design, HPs could work. I just don't think there are any good performers out there on the market right now.

 

[Blueduck]

I've admitted before I'm no guru on "stopping power" and tend to doubt anyone who claims they are but.. my thoughts are that police shoot and properly document more shootings with handguns than about anybody else. 99.5% of U.S. Law Enforcment agencies have gone to hollowpoints of one type or another.... Good enough for me.

That said if my gun was loaded with FMJ rounds I would not roll over and give up either

 

[mountainclmbr]

I think it is a trade off. A bullet has to have enough penetration to be effective in general situations. A .17 high velocity bullet is not my first choice against a threat such as a gang of 350 lb plus bikers with leather jackets, chains, clubs, knives and especially guns. My personal minimums are 125 gr HP in .357 mag (rem golden sabre), 155 gr in .40 (Gold Dot HP), and 185 gr in .45 ACP (185 Cor Bon). The smallest of these would be my backup guns. I don't carry mouse guns.

 

[Tamara]

4. FMJ = military chooses FMJ

No, FMJ was forced on military by Hague Accords. (An illuminating read would be O'Connell's Of Arms And Men.)

 

[WonderNine]

The military doesn't always use FMJ anyways, that's a myth.

But yes, I prefer FMJ over hollowpoints.

If you want a real "one shot stop" you have to aim and hit the CNS this includes the brain, brain stem, spinal cord, ect.

Hollowpoint handgun ammo penetration against bone and heavy clothing/gear (soldiers and determined attackers generally wear alot of gear, and this time of year people wear alot of clothing) is questionable at best in non-magnum calibers or even magnum calibers out of short barrels. Handguns are anemic to begin with, why make it worse with a hollowpoint?

And then when you get into rifle calibers, many types of higher speed FMJ bullets (including the .223) reliably fragment anyways out of a decent length barrel.

 

[N3rday]

Hollowpoints are great for self defense, but hunting i'd go wit FMJs

p.s. WonderNine thats the first time I've ever heard someone use the word "anemic" in a sentence before

 

[WonderNine]

p.s. WonderNine thats the first time I've ever heard someone use the word "anemic" in a sentence before

 

[Blackhawk]

Carbonator, what you say is "this view," is also my view.

 

[Ankeny]

For the record, a FMJ is the worst thing you can use against big game animals. In fact, fmj is illegal for big game hunting in the vast majority of states. Of course there are exceptions such as Cape Buffalo where additional penetration is required.

 

[BluesBear]

................

 

[denfoote]

I'm not going to play Doctor Frankenstein and try to revive this dead horse.

Visit the TFL archives and you will experience the voluminous depth to which this subject has been discussed over and over and over and over... ad nauseum!!!!

I use hollow points.

 

[WonderNine]

For the record, a FMJ is the worst thing you can use against big game animals. In fact, fmj is illegal for big game hunting in the vast majority of states. Of course there are exceptions such as Cape Buffalo where additional penetration is required.

That's the funniest post I've ever seen on THR or TFL combined minus the original mall ninja (Gecko45) thread.

 

[Majic]

For the record, a FMJ is the worst thing you can use against big game animals.

Then how have we been killing game with cast bullets for all these years?

 

[BluesBear]

Psssst...

Cast and full metal jacket are slightly different.

 

[Majic]

The jacket covering has no effect on bullet performance. Cast and FMJ perform the same on game. Neither expands on impact.

 

[Hal]

Over-rated is the closest fit to how I feel, so that's the way I voted.

The term over-rated doesn't exactly fit my idea.

Mis-placed faith would be closer. Waaaaaay to many peolple seem to feel that a high velocity lightweight hollow point is always going to be the equal of a large caliber heavy weight.

 

[BluesBear]

Ahhh so a cast bullet, or even a swaged bullet won't deform more than a
FMJ?

And of course we won't even mention that the meplat and ogive on a cast bullet is usually (but not always) very different from a modern FMJ (in rifle weights and configurations that is). But then we shouldn't mention rifles and rifle projectiles since this is a handgun thread.

[back to handguns]

It could be argued that a properly shaped lead bullet would be a better hunting projectile than most FMJ because of lead's ability to be molded into more effective profiles. In many cases a good alloy Keith type lead bullet will create a more effective wound channel than a round nose or trunicated cone FMJ.

Of course I believe that this excursion into nitpicking was started by someones opinion advocating the use of only FMJ bullets for handgun hunting.

Handgun hunting is not a "one size fits all" proposition. There are many more variables in selecting a hunting bullet than there are in selecting a self defense bullet.

For self defense, as in most varmint hunting, "spoiling the meat" is not a consideration. While in small game it is. In medium size game, moderate penetration with localized tissue damage is important when using smaller calibers. For big and dangerous game penetration through heavy muscle mass and dense bone are the deciding factors.
So one can't really say that one partucular type of bullet is a panacea for all occasions.


As for the original intent of this thread all I have left to say is...
Decide which way you want to go, (right now you still have the choice)
Practice, practice, practice,
And pray like heck that you never have to prove yourself right or wrong.


When in doubt, get out (or grab a shotgun)

 

[Schmit]

4. FMJ = military chooses FMJ

The primary reason that the military uses FMJ ammo is because of the way they interpret the Hauge Convention prohibitions on weapons/ammo that are designed to wound, or cause "pain and suffering."

No, FMJ was forced on military by Hague Accords.

Well, kind of yes, and kind of no. As usual when it comes to Govt/DOD stuff there is more to this then meets the eye.

Here is a over-view of the Hague Accords and recent findings

I also know for a fact that certain Military Forces use non-ball/FMJ ammo during operations that are conducted while not engaged in a declaired war btwn signing parties

 

[Mannlicher]

Carbonator,

1. FMJ can have better penetration, but most JHP also penetrate well. One thing to keep in mind, is you need a balance between penetration, and energy transfer.

2. FMJ bullets do not feed 'better'.

3. Where did you ever hear that FMJ bullets are 'better against animals'? This may be true if you are talking Rhinos or Buffalo, but certainly incorrect in most cases. Almost all of America and Europe bans FMJ bullets from being used in hunting.

4. What the military uses in a rifle has little bearing on what you should use. Small units that matter, don't use FMJ in their handguns.

5. Why do you equate penetration with accuracy. False again. With handguns, the myth of 'overpenetration' is pretty much that, but with rifles, FMJ will exit as often as not. Hey, its probably YOUR family that would be harmed, so its your choice

6. is to convoluted to even discuss.

In short, I think none of your statements hold up to scrutiny.

6.

 

[LeonCarr]

I promise I am not trying to revive another dead horse in addition to the FMJ/HP debate, but some authorities recommended the use of ball ammo in handguns (Clint Smith, Chuck Taylor, Jeff Cooper), and you will have more bleeding, which results in faster incapacitiation, with an exit hole than with an entrance hole. Also, recent experiments have suggested that in the .223, a FMJ at the right velocity will produce the same amount or more damage to human tissue than a HP. I think the widespread switch to hollow points by law enforcement is as much for liability reasons (overpenetration of bullets wounding bystanders) as it is for tissue disruption and stopping power.

I am not trying to add fuel to a fire, but this is just some of the information I have seen on this board in the ongoing FMJ/HP saga. I carry hollow points in my handguns. If you put either one of them in the right place, they will work. If you want an ongoing saga, go to the soap opera channel and watch Dallas .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[ARperson]

My take on the issue

Assume for these arguments a "normal" human target.

As was said before, "better" is a relative thing. If by better you mean a creating 2 wounds, then the FMJ probably do that better. But it is arguable that both an exit and an entrance hole are superior to massive tissue trauma caused by the HP ripping up the insides. The HP will penetrate enough to do its thing. Two holes and a straight path between them do not mean more bleeding, despite some of the arguments for FMJ. All else being equal, the HP will create more tissue damage than the FMJ. While this may not mean a better defensive round (way too many other variables here), at least it's harder for the docs to put humpty back together again.

5. FMJ = overpenetration overrated? hitting bystanders overrated? Accuracy seems much much more important in preventing innocent people getting hit. Even then the chances are nil.

You obviously haven't seen the local area police around here in a shoot-out. Scary stuff.

What I find odd is that you praise penetration in point number 1, but then say that it's overrated in point number 6. How is an FMJ superior to the HP in penetration issues if you do not mean an through-and-through (the whole 2 holes/wounds argument)? I only say this because, as I said before, the HP will penetrate enough to get the job done. So penetration issues become moot if the idea is just creating internal wounds. Again, remember this is on a human target. I realize the ballistics and objectives with game hunting is different. The only point I see to FMJ for penetration purposes is to create 2 wounds. And if that happens there is a good chance of hitting someone else because the bullet is still traveling.

I guess I just kind of see it as an inconsistency. Of course, I do realize it's a myopic viewpoint to limit to human targets, but that seems to be the purpose for most hollow point ammo and uses.

 

[zahc]

Almost all of America and Europe bans FMJ bullets from being used in hunting.