Defense and Morality...

[Low-Sci]

Bear in mind that the context for these statements is that you are in a situation where you could directly affect a third party's safety, and this third party is completely innocent.

If your answer depends on whether you know the innocent or not, please select whichever answer you think applies most often.

This is not a public poll; if you want your answer to be public, feel free to post it yourself.

 

[atlctyslkr]

I would hope I would be afforded the same if it were the other way around so YES!

 

[loki.fish]

My sorrow goes out to the one guy who voted no. Why someone would be so selfish as to not help out a fellow human is beyond me. The biggest push for me to get my CCL was an incident I saw on the news that happened around Philadelphia, PA. Some guy beat the hell out of a woman, who later was found to be a former classmate at a college, with a baseball bat in broad daylight. It happened in a parking lot area if IRC. Plenty of people were around and nobody did anything to stop it. I cannot accept this. I can't just sit by and watch at somebody getting beaten to death or in obvious physical harm and do nothing about it. It's inhumane and very cold hearted.

 

[Biker]

Yes, and I have a number of times.

Biker

 

[TexasRifleman]

My sorrow goes out to the one guy who voted no.

He probably has a lawyer in the family and knows the consequences.

I voted yes, but I feel absolutely sure I'd get my a** sued over such a thing by someody for something.

 

[Biker]

I did get sued as a consequence of one event. I won, but it was still a PITA.
I'd do it again.

Biker

 

[Werewolf]

Life isn't black and white and we don't live in a digital universe thus the black and white options are inadequate to answer the question the OP asks.

A moral obligation exists to protect one's immediate family but even that is not an iron clad rule in some conceivable situations.

A moral obligation exists if and only if one can determine with a high degree of certainty that the one being protected is in fact truly an innocent. Good luck with that.

In this day and age one risks the financial well being of one's self and one's family by becoming involved in a violent incident on behalf of another. It is sad but true that the practical factors more often than not will outweigh the moral ones.

However, feel free to become bankrupt, maybe end up in prison or even dead for a stranger.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Not feeling morally obligated does not mean a person won't help, just that they don't feel obligated to help. I don't feel morally obligated to help stranded motorists either, but I have helped several.

Bear in mind that the context for these statements is that you are in a situation where you could directly affect a third party's safety, and this third party is completely innocent.

This is one of those catch all scenario factors that assumes total situational and contextual awareness. Most likely if the third party is unknown to us would we be able to actually know that the third party is completely innocent or not.

 

[BetaShooter]

I know I'm gonna catch flak for this - but I voted NO.

I have a CHL and carry 99.9% of the time. The scenario presently seems really vague. Werewold alluded to this: How do I know which person is innocent? What if (which is what we are doing here) the bad guy is actually an off duty or undercover cop? Sometimes we should just mind our own damn business. A CHL does not make me a LEO. If I wanted to save the world (and make very little money) I would have become a LEO.

 

[Nio]

I don't know much about morality, but I do feel ethically motovated.

As for the folks who are always on about all the reasons for not helping people who obviously need help, it just proves that cowards carry guns too.

I could care less about how bad it's going to hurt financially if I stop a bad guy from raping someone else's little girl. What I care about is my humanity if I don't.

Nio

 

[ccw9mm]

So long as society deems me fodder for legal machinations after offering such help, folks must learn to reap what they've sown.

Offering up a telephone call to 911 is helping, though perhaps not to the degree someone under attack might like. In the right circumstances, I might well ask the attacker what he/she's doing, hanging around to be a witness while the 911 call went through. If then directly attacked myself, I would defend to the degree
required. However, 911 first and foremost.

That said, I supose this thread is about distinguishing morality from practicality. In all practicality, 911 trumps getting directly involved most every time. Morally, I'm all for helping someone who is being wronged. It's just not very realistic.

 

[Nio]

Offering up a telephone call to 911 is helping, though perhaps not to the degree someone under attack might like. In the right circumstances, I might well ask the attacker what he/she's doing, hanging around to be a witness while the 911 call went through. If then directly attacked myself, I would defend to the degree required. However, 911 first and foremost.

"And what were you doing while he was beating and raping my daughter, with her screaming and begging for help the whole time? What were you doing when he finished and then pulled out the knife and stabbed her to death? What were you doing when he was running away into the night?"

"I was on the phone with 911."

"Oh. Thanks. I appreciate that you helped her then."



Nio

 

[Erebus]

In this day and age one risks the financial well being of one's self and one's family by becoming involved in a violent incident on behalf of another. It is sad but true that the practical factors more often than not will outweigh the moral ones.

The OP stated that it was clear who was the victim/innocent party. Are you going to stand by and possibly watch them die so that you don't have to deal with any inconvenience?

I think when I was standing in that parking lot at the car wash with a Glock pointed at my head and a masked guy demanding my money it would have been pretty damn clear to anyone watching what was going on. Alas I was alone at the place with the gunman and a tire that was low on air. I only had $2 to give him, he pulled the trigger, gun clicked, no bang, to this day I don't know why. This is the reason I got my LTC.

However, feel free to become bankrupt, maybe end up in prison or even dead for a stranger.

Lord knows it's much better to let someone die than risk a lawsuit.:banghead:

I could care less about how bad it's going to hurt financially if I stop a bad guy from raping someone else's little girl. What I care about is my humanity if I don't.

I'm with ya man!! I have a friend that was raped, I would give up everything I own in a heartbeat to have been able to prevent that.

Oh and for those that wouldn't be sure who the victim is, she's the one being held down, screaming "no, stop, please don't" and having her clothes torn off. Oh and her getting the crap beat outta her is a clue too.

 

[OB-1]

My Duty

I believe it is my duty to protect the innocent, care for the weak, and leave the lazy to their own pathetic demise.

 

[redranger1]

I realize that this is an anti religious site but considering that religion and morals go hand in hand but i feel compelled to post. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you" comes to mind as does "Love your nieghbor". And whether your a religious man or not, real love for another human is selflessly helping them with out and regard to what it may cost you.

 

[Baba Louie]

While the Boy Scout in me says "Help Others" and I probably would with zero hesitation if I truly KNEW one was innocent and another was about to inflict lethal evil, I was taught by my father that the old adages, "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished", "Nice Guys Finish Last" and "Life Is NOT Fair" are almost always true. I'm sure that all would apply should my "Saviour Complex" kick in.

I would also opine that I ask no one to look out for me. That being my responsibility and mine alone.

 

[BetaShooter]

I think some of you guys are suffering from this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_Complex

Of course I will act to prevent a child from being kidnapped, a woman from being raped, etc. - IF I AM 100% SURE OF THE SITUATION! Often things are not always what they seem. I will not seek out these situations though, and I would err on the side of NOT lending a hand. Many bad things happen because people don't mind their own business.

 

[stevekl]

My position:

I don't have the moral obligation to risk my safety for other people because my life isn't a means to and end (the end being other people), so there's no moral obligation for me to walk around protecting people.

BUT, risking my safety for another isn't neccessarily immoral. Would I do it for someone whose happiness I value? Absolutely, not because I have a moral duty to help him or her, but because I have a selfish interest in keeping him or her safe.

Would I do it for a total stranger? It depends on the circumstances.

 

[mljdeckard]

I'm completely with betashooter in this one.

Of course I don't want to let bad things happen to other people. But you can't go in and start throwing lead when you don't know for sure what is going on. I have a VERY short list of people I would act to protect with deadly force. I have a SISter I wouldn't pull for right away, because she has a history of doing bad things with bad people, and for all I know, when I walk into a bad situation with her in the middle, SHE was the instigator.

 

[Soybomb]

I try to help people when I can generally.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

 

[Biker]

Folks, it doesn't necessarily have to come down to holeing people. Why does everyone assume that you have to start trigger pulling? Good God...

The way I got it figured, any Man who is sitting when he should be up and standing ain't much of a Man. If you *know* that somehing bad is happening and you don't intervene, aren't you part of the bad stuff? There are always grey areas, but if you *know*?
For example, I've yet to run across a good enough reason for a man to beat a woman. If I see it, I'm gonna get involved. If I see a black man being beat up by a bunch of white guys in my driveway, I'm gonna get involved.
I don't get it...the attitude.

Biker

 

[mljdeckard]

because this is a gun board?

I can make phone calls, and witness an event without getting into trouble. But to actually use deadly force requires a long checklist.

 

[Biker]

Your implication is that guns and "deadly force" are the only solution to a potentially physical problem. You're wrong. This board is about much more than shooting people.
911? Ever see how much damage can be done to a human body in 10 seconds?
Real life ain't Hollywood.

Biker

 

[Nio]

"Every man is responsible for defending every woman and every child. When the male no longer takes this role, when he no longer has the courage or feels the moral responsibility, then that society will no longer be a society where honor and virtue are esteemed. Laws and government cannot replace this personal caring and commitment. In the absence of the Warrior protector, the only way that a government can protect a society is to remove the freedom of the people. And the sons and daughters of lions become sheep."

— James Williams

Nio

 

[10-Ring]

I hope it's not just during times of natural disaster that people come to the aid of other people. I hope it's not just for tv news cameras that we do good for others.
I hope we haven't gotten to that point in the land of liability or the idea of WIIFM (what's in in for me) that we aren't willing to help others in need.