DEL-TON, Spikes Tactical, etc....

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I don't know about everyone else, but the Spike's stuff I've seen doesn't look like they cut corners anywhere. They are a small operation with lower overhead.
 
I don't think you'll see them $300 cheaper if you compare apples to apples.

I have a Spike's upper and have not found any corners cut. Pricewise it is a good deal but not much less than comparable quality from other makes. Jury is still out on whether Spike's can be considered a top quality "serious use" type gun, but it's quite possibly there and definitely close if not 100% there.

Spike's did cut a big corner with their "ST-T2" buffer. It may come free with the upper, but you would be better off with a conventional H or H2 buffer. Vuurwapen blog has the details.

On Del-Ton, historically they did cut a number of corners on material specs. Lately they are advertising mostly mil-spec materials - Carpenter 158 bolts, 8620 carriers, and via email (reply to a question I asked them) now CMV steel barrels (may or may not be mil-spec, but it's a cut above 4140 regardless). The base DTI guns have non-chrome-lined barrels which is a cost cutting measure, but most have a chrome-lined option for an extra $45. Quality of assembly is very good but not up to the level of top brands like BCM, Colt etc.; it is as good as most of the lower to mid tier brands though, and better than some. DTI guns can be nice, accurate plinking or hunting rifles, but not really the best choice for "serious use."
 
The biggest place companies cut corners is with properly testing their components. It cost a lot of money to have every barrel and bolt checked for defects. High Pressure tests means you have to proof fire each barrel. MPI testing requires every barrel be subjected to a visual check. It is all fairly labor intensive and that means money. A lot of companies do away with this all together and still others only test in batch. What does batch mean? Nobody really know. 1 out of 100? 1 out of 1000? 1 out of 10,000? And if one that is tested is bad I know they don't throw them out. So what do they do? Test another, and another, and another, till they find one that passes?

The second way to cut corners is materials. Cheaper steel is probably the most common here. Not bothering to Shot Peen Bolts. All of these things add up as well.

Finally the last way is QC. The lower your level of Quality Control standards the more you let out the door. Spoilage is a huge burden on

Z-Michigan already said it, but normally the price difference isn't even 300 Dollars. It is 200 or less. And in my opinion that 200 is well spent. Spikes seems to be coming in at a lower price point and have shown documents stating they follow the higher specs. But I am still hesitant. If something is to good to be true, it probably is.
 
Spikes seems to be coming in at a lower price point and have shown documents stating they follow the higher specs. But I am still hesitant. If something is to good to be true, it probably is.
Click to expand...

Spike's posted a huge set of documents showing their suppliers, material specs on the supplier invoices, and testing, all at ar15.com. I posted it before, but here it is again:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=282&t=194245

You would have to believe in an enormous, blatant fraud to think this doesn't settle the issue of whether Spike's is doing what they say.

Some companies are willing to accept lower profits or run a short-term loss to gain business longer term. BCM was less money when it was still trying to make a reputation too. I would also note that Spike's is in Florida where wages tend to be fairly low relative to the postindustrial midwest, where I am and where BCM is.

I'm not saying Spike's is quite equal to BCM, and I'm about to drop serious $$$ on a BCM upper for a premium build, but I would not worry about Spike's at this point.
 
Let me clarify here! I don't doubt the documentation at all, that actually went a long way towards soothing my fears with Spikes. I just wonder how they are coming in less expensive than some other manufacturers. Of course some people (not you Z) Assume is is a conspiracy among some companies to keep prices high.

I also tend to be hesitant about any company till I have personally ran their gear through the ringer or it has been run through by someone I really trust.
 
I hear you. I have to assume that Spike's is paying people less than BCM, somehow.

The more I learn about ARs, the more I understand where BCM is doing many details better than almost anyone else (exceptions: Colt [for obsolete barrel/gas system designs] and probably DD and LMT). Most of those details will never matter for 99% of users outside active military in a war zone, however.

While we're at it, the $1150 retail price at Bud's of a DD M4v3 with a hammer forged barrel and $300+ DD FF quadrail also seems suspiciously low... makes you wonder whether DD is cutting corners or if other companies are gouging. (Half joking, half not...)
 
If you think that is cheap check out the Smartgunner.com deal on Daniel Defense uppers right now. 525 for the upper with any DD rail except the RIS, which is a few bucks more. Add 125 for a Bolt and you have a Top Tier AR upper for 650!

Daniel Defense is able to cut some costs by making almost everything in house. But yes those prices are stupid low.
 
Spike's may be saving big money by not advertising widely in print and not sponsoring television shows and professional shooters, which would allow them to operate with a lower profit margin.

mbogo
 
I'm waiting on 2 DD uppers from SmartGunner as I type. Was hard to pass up that kinda deal at that price. DD makes great stuff and I've been just as happy with it as I have my BCM and Spikes Rifles. Plus they're factory built by DD and shipped from them. I wouldn't hesitate to buy either again nor would I hesitate to trust either in a serious use scenario.

I agree with Mbogo in that they all may be following different go to market strategies. Some may favor low margin/high volume and others may favor higher margin/low volume.
 
wait... those smartgunner custom uppers are assembled by DD??
 
Yep, apparently Tommy over at SmartGunner worked out some deal with them that runs till the end of the year for special pricing. DD assembles and ships them......just spoke with with the guys over at DD a little while ago to check the status of my order.

$349 for a basic upper puts the pricing right in line with the same that BCM is having. Where you really make out if doing the custom build with a DD rail. I got a 14.5" Lightweight Middy with DD 12.0 Rail and Perm BattleComp 1.5 for $705 and another 14.5" LW Middy with DD 12.0 Rail and perm Phantom for $569.....both with free shipping and! It makes it very hard to resist a deal like that!

Specs for my latest budget build are:

14.5" Lightweight DD Mid-Length Upper w/DD12.0 rail and Pinned Phantom - $569
DD BCG - $124
DD Stripped lower(includes shipping and transfer) - $150
Palmetto State Armory MOE Lower Build Kit $150
Magpul MBUS Set - $75


$1.068......hard to beat that!
 
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A thread on ar15.com also said those custom uppers were built by DD, not by "smartgunner."

Looks like a real great deal to me.
 
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

Now, a little patience, please - I just went over and looked at the site on smartgunner.

As I understand it, it's cheaper to get a Daniels complete AR package there than via Daniels directly?

And a complete can be had for $650?

What about the lower receiver?

Thanks
 
You are correct. It is cheaper to do than than go through DD directly. You can also get a DD LPK for 65 bucks. They are normally $100.

And I believe he has lowers listed for 125 which is about 15 cheaper than normal.

I just built a DD gun. I plan on building another on Smartgunner. I don't even really have the money. But how can I NOT!.
 
I've got a Del-ton upper, and I can't see any evidence of any corners being cut. It's operated flawlessly for me. Maybe it's not up to "battlefield" specs. I haven't drug one through a jungle so I wouldn't know, but as far as a fun gun to take out and shoot to your heart's content on the weekends? They're a wonderful value.
 
One thing to keep on mind is that typically "cut corner" don't dont to show up till you start really running your rifle hard. Most guys are average weekend warriors who's AR's only see limited action from the bench and occasional offhand shooting at paper targets. There are many who can count on their finger the number of times they've run their gun till its was hot and smoky enough to the point of discomfort. Then there are those out there though that run their guns hard week in and out putting hundreds to thousands of rounds through them at a time rather than over a period of months or years. I run mine hard and they need to be able to work clean or dirty and with all sorts of ammo.....and lots of it at a time.

I have no problem with the DTI guns or the guys that buy them since those rifles fit their need. I on the other hand would prefer to buy something else which better fits my need.
 
Z-Michigan said:
Spike's did cut a big corner with their "ST-T2" buffer. It may come free with the upper, but you would be better off with a conventional H or H2 buffer. Vuurwapen blog has the details.
Click to expand...
Can you point me this? Everything I find there contradicts your statement and in fact praises the ST-T2? I don't own one but am considering one and want to get the dope on it, good or bad.
 
Here's the video, that shows that the ST-T2 is less effective than a conventional heavy buffer, and appears to be about as effective in controlling bolt bounce as the lighter "carbine" weight buffer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=575Q0O41u5s

Here's an older post from the blog that is more positive on this buffer:
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2009/12/22/oh-products/

Note the dates of each.

The ST-T2 isn't terrible, but it claims to be an improvement and is probably instead a small step back.
 
So I guess I should have got the BCM Buffer ?

Anyone want to buy a slightly used buffer :cuss:

What is the weight difference between H2, H3 and the spikes ST-T2 ?

I'm thinking my CMMG could go as high as H3 as it cycles Wolf okay.
 
If your current buffer is working for you, I probably wouldn't bother switching now.

The ST-T2 has a weight in between an H and H2. If you decide to get a new buffer, I'd get an H2 at the highest.
 
Given the immense over-supply of AR-15 parts on the market, I'm surprised someone hasn't put together an entry-level AR-15 for $400 yet.
 
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