jr81452
Member
true but i did say "big tobaco" there are always the offbrand smokes at the lower prices. bad example i know, but the only one i could think of at this hour.
Democrats Stifle Minimum Wage Increase
- Thread starter cameron.personal
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If they raise minimum wage, the cost of goods those minimum wage makers make will go up, and the demand for minimum wage earners will go down (meaning, some of them will lose their jobs). Bam, negative economic impact. Also, everyone who makes $0.50 or what have you more than minimum wage - and worked to get that raise will be pissed off to kingdom come because they're not likely to get a raise at all themselves.
Yep, then high school students could be payed a pittance for pittance work flipping burgers. Most would probably still work for $4 an hour, I imagine.
I know that in the more economically depressed states that most employers actually say, "yep, we pay minimum wage - because that's as little as we're allowed to pay" - at least, that's pretty much my experience.
Limeyfellow
Member
That assumes though the price of goods doesn't increase anyway while wages stay stagnant, so people have less money and can't buy the goods the business are selling. If you not careful you end up driving US companies out of business as people have to make do with cheaper imported goods.
The problem is minimum pay has been delinked from inflation costs so people have less money now than they used to be. If you don't take that into account too you end up with the days of the great depression where people are working a $1 and are lucky to afford a loaf of bread, let alone pay rent and so on.
Now they could go get a better job, but its not easy to make 600000 jobs out of nowhere unless you have the likes of the black death lowering the population and making a demand. So they are stuck in what is pretty much taken to its furthest extent is serfdom of the Middle Ages.
jr81452
Member
amen limey!
Caimlas
first as to the top quote. that is regergitated corporate BS. the simple fact is there exists no product that is greatly affected by a $1 wage increase. we are not talking about a person who makes one item every hour. we are talking about quotas and mass production. when we discuss minimum wage even a gas station atendent sells more than one item every hour. if they can't then the station should be out of business any way. and don't even try "well if you have 200 employees then its $200 an hour. because if you have 200 imployees then the productivity is equaly higher. if tis not then its a managment problem and if you can't overcome it your going out of business to. even when you consider the union wages that are tied to the min. wage. lets say they make 3x the min. wage then thier wage increase is $3/h but they dont make one product per hour that costs $18 they make products that cost $300 and they make more than one an hour. the fact is that the lower the price of a product the faster it can be made. if it took more time to make it would cost MORE. do you realy think that price is based on market alone? if that were true, hard to find items would see cost increases and items that are always availible would see price declines. that is just not the way it works. the theory of supply and demand only works in service and barter/auction type systems. the price is set by major market supliers. in short whoever produces the largest supply of said items gets to determine the price as they have the most for sale.
as to your second statment. do you ever wonder why those "burger flipers" do such a bad job of making the customer happy? could it be because they work all day in a job just so they can come up short when they go to pay thier bills? do you realy think that lowering thier wage will make them do a better job? have you ever heard of moral? while it is obvious that you don't think they contribute to society, ever wonder where you would eat lunch without them?
and most honest employers raise all the lower tier wages when the min wage goes up. so your guy making $0.50 more than min wage now, will most likely still be making $0.50 more than the wage after it goes up.
Caimlas
first as to the top quote. that is regergitated corporate BS. the simple fact is there exists no product that is greatly affected by a $1 wage increase. we are not talking about a person who makes one item every hour. we are talking about quotas and mass production. when we discuss minimum wage even a gas station atendent sells more than one item every hour. if they can't then the station should be out of business any way. and don't even try "well if you have 200 employees then its $200 an hour. because if you have 200 imployees then the productivity is equaly higher. if tis not then its a managment problem and if you can't overcome it your going out of business to. even when you consider the union wages that are tied to the min. wage. lets say they make 3x the min. wage then thier wage increase is $3/h but they dont make one product per hour that costs $18 they make products that cost $300 and they make more than one an hour. the fact is that the lower the price of a product the faster it can be made. if it took more time to make it would cost MORE. do you realy think that price is based on market alone? if that were true, hard to find items would see cost increases and items that are always availible would see price declines. that is just not the way it works. the theory of supply and demand only works in service and barter/auction type systems. the price is set by major market supliers. in short whoever produces the largest supply of said items gets to determine the price as they have the most for sale.
as to your second statment. do you ever wonder why those "burger flipers" do such a bad job of making the customer happy? could it be because they work all day in a job just so they can come up short when they go to pay thier bills? do you realy think that lowering thier wage will make them do a better job? have you ever heard of moral? while it is obvious that you don't think they contribute to society, ever wonder where you would eat lunch without them?
and most honest employers raise all the lower tier wages when the min wage goes up. so your guy making $0.50 more than min wage now, will most likely still be making $0.50 more than the wage after it goes up.
Ratzinger_p38
Member
I dont agree with min wages, although I think right now your typical 'min wage' job is actually below the market value at the moment.
IMO if you scrapped it you would see min wage jobs actually being paid more.
IMO if you scrapped it you would see min wage jobs actually being paid more.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
Friend, I no longer have a small business. When I did, I had six employees. Three salaried and three hourly wage ears. ONE made minimum wage and was not just functionally illiterate but totally illiterate and innumerate as well. He couldn't read a ruler. Most of the work he did was work that other employees could do during slow times such as dusting the furniture on the showroom floor.
I offered to adjust his schedule so he could attend adult school. I offered to tutor him. Nothing.
He was all skippy when he heard that minimum wage was being increased until I told him that his hours were being cut as what I was already paying him was more than the job he was able to perform was worth.
Out of three highest paid employees, there was one white male (the owner-myself), a black male, and a white female. The black man and myself were receiving exactly the same paycheck. The white female was making 75% of our salary but was also working about twenty hours a week less, never had to stay after closing time, and never had to work on accounts receivable. She was told that anytime she chose to work the hours we worked, stay after closing time when we did, and help with accounts receivable then her pay would be increased to equal ours. She said thanks but no thanks.
I feel sorry for your employees who only get raises when the government makes you raise their pay rates.
jr81452
Member
As stated before my employees make much more than min. wage. You sir sound like an honorable businessman. Your one employee who made min. wage sounds more like charity than business. However you imply that ALL minimum wage personnel are both stupid and lazy. That is just not the case.
Consider a man I know who could not go to college due to the fact that his father passed in his senior year of high school. His mother is crippled and blind from an illness. Now he has to both work and take care of her, or she goes to a nursing home under Medicare. Since he has no higher education and no particular skills he is forced to take whatever work he can get that is near his home. He took a job with a local company earning min wage. This was 3 years ago. Now having learned the skills to do his job and studying on his own time he has learned how to program almost any web based application. Guess how much of a raise all his efforts and skills have earned him? How does $0.50 an hour sound? That’s right $6.70/h, that’s all the more he is making. Why? Because his employer knows that he can’t get another job that will allow him to get home before the day nurse leaves. He can’t go to a major company in the area because without a reference from his current employer he has no proof to offer that he can do the tasks he is capable of.
The point of my story? For every good businessman out there, there is another who will knowingly screw their employees in order to make more money for themselves. And if someone does not step in and make them, they will never pay a living wage.
At any rate, looking back at the orignal post I see that all of this is a bit off
topic. So I will say that the OP seems to be right about the dems screwing this up and thats all the more I have to say on that mater.
Consider a man I know who could not go to college due to the fact that his father passed in his senior year of high school. His mother is crippled and blind from an illness. Now he has to both work and take care of her, or she goes to a nursing home under Medicare. Since he has no higher education and no particular skills he is forced to take whatever work he can get that is near his home. He took a job with a local company earning min wage. This was 3 years ago. Now having learned the skills to do his job and studying on his own time he has learned how to program almost any web based application. Guess how much of a raise all his efforts and skills have earned him? How does $0.50 an hour sound? That’s right $6.70/h, that’s all the more he is making. Why? Because his employer knows that he can’t get another job that will allow him to get home before the day nurse leaves. He can’t go to a major company in the area because without a reference from his current employer he has no proof to offer that he can do the tasks he is capable of.
The point of my story? For every good businessman out there, there is another who will knowingly screw their employees in order to make more money for themselves. And if someone does not step in and make them, they will never pay a living wage.
At any rate, looking back at the orignal post I see that all of this is a bit off
topic. So I will say that the OP seems to be right about the dems screwing this up and thats all the more I have to say on that mater.
Isn't the article biased towards one side? There are 2 ways to look at it.
If you are a Democrat, you will twist it to mean Bush is against the minimum wage hike by vetoing the bill.
If you are Republican, you will twist it to mean Democrats are against the minimum wage hike by attaching it to a bill that Bush will veto.
Maybe there is another way to look at it. The depressing view.
Democrats attached the minimum wage hike to the bill to try and force Bush to not veto the war bill. They don't give a **** about the people earning minimum wage. Bush vetoed the bill because he also doesn't give a **** about the people earning minimum wage, the war is more important.
If you are a Democrat, you will twist it to mean Bush is against the minimum wage hike by vetoing the bill.
If you are Republican, you will twist it to mean Democrats are against the minimum wage hike by attaching it to a bill that Bush will veto.
Maybe there is another way to look at it. The depressing view.
Democrats attached the minimum wage hike to the bill to try and force Bush to not veto the war bill. They don't give a **** about the people earning minimum wage. Bush vetoed the bill because he also doesn't give a **** about the people earning minimum wage, the war is more important.
jr81452
Member
ether way it was a bill introduced by the dems and then MADE to fail. looks like they traded in the min wage to get brownie points while being anti war. and i'm a Democrat
Autolycus
Member
Foob: The article is completely biased against Democrats. I believe one line actually says that they are the worst thing to happen to this country.
cuchulainn
Member
Minimum wage laws minimize jobs -- meaning the poor can't buy guns.
See! It always comes back to gun control!
See! It always comes back to gun control!
freakazoid
member
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Such is the way of capitalism. Capitalism can not be sustained without cheap labor from elsewhere to keep the price of goods down, this is why they exploit immigrants and have to have things done cheaply overseas. The bourgeoisie exploits the proletariat to deepen his own pockets. It can not support itself for long. This is largely why capitalism will eventually collapse.
Our government should not be legislating a "minimum wage". Rather it should be ensuring that there is not an imported cheap labor pool and impoted cheap goods produced in countries with extremely low wages that suppress wages in this country.
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Heavy Metal Hero
Member
Thanks for the lecture Pax! Now what you are saying makes sense, although I am still on the fence about it. Like I said there are much more important things to worry about.
Not absolutely. From what I know the pay working at a gas station is usually above minimum wage as is. You wouldn't be forced to raise the wages of those above the minimum.
Not absolutely. From what I know the pay working at a gas station is usually above minimum wage as is. You wouldn't be forced to raise the wages of those above the minimum.
Zach S
Member
edited
Sure you would. As the cost of other goods and services rises to compensate for the new artificial wage floor, your employees' current salaries would effectively fall in buying power. The employer either increases wages or loses productivity/work force.
Capatalism does not rely on cheap foreign labor to be workable.
Greed relies on cheap foreign labor who produce sustandard items that do not, and were not, ever meant to last for any appreciable time.
Sell it cheap, ensure it breaks, and get them to buy more and more.
Big bonuses for the corporate CEOs and no improvement in standards for those cheap foreign laborers.
If the foreign laborers were so very happy with the working conditions in their own countries then why do they continue to flock to America in quest of the dream?
Don't tell me it is only because we need them to do the jobs Americans won't do because the jobs they are filling are positions like bricklayer, sheetrocker, carpenter, truck driver etc.
In some cases the quality of the replacement work force is quite low and the employers have returned to higher wage American workers because they receive a better standard of employee and the money is considered well spent in order to keep the quality of their product at a high level.
The immigrants are coming here, as they always have, because the standards are so very much better that what they have in their home port PLUS capatalism allows them to save money and become independent and very successful business people WHO I may add are the exact same people in several cases who have exported work back to their own countries and use their own countries workers to make them richer, richer, richer.
Leave that assumtion that it is all rich white guys who are moving the jobs offshore on the back burner, there are plenty of people who are using loopsholes in the system that aren't rich white guys.
A higher minimum wage allows people who are beginning their working careers and those who may not have the education and skill levels to gain high wage jobs here to make a reasonable living for themselves and their families.
Oh and it also gives them a bit of disposable income that they just might spend on guns and ammunition.
If people want high wage jobs to stay here then they need to put the effort into proving to the Corporate executives that those wages equal a quality standard that is unsurpassed anywhere in the world.
Why pay an American worker $60.00 an hour when you can get the same level of quality labor and general work ethic and attitude from some guy in another country for ten times less?
Capatalism is based on a free trade market that expects and demands high quality and is willing to pay for high quality.
If that standard does not hold then capatalism DOES NOT exist.
The market is nothing more than a free trade conglomerate where the lowest bidder wins the market share.
Welcome to Wal-Mart happy shopper.
Greed relies on cheap foreign labor who produce sustandard items that do not, and were not, ever meant to last for any appreciable time.
Sell it cheap, ensure it breaks, and get them to buy more and more.
Big bonuses for the corporate CEOs and no improvement in standards for those cheap foreign laborers.
If the foreign laborers were so very happy with the working conditions in their own countries then why do they continue to flock to America in quest of the dream?
Don't tell me it is only because we need them to do the jobs Americans won't do because the jobs they are filling are positions like bricklayer, sheetrocker, carpenter, truck driver etc.
In some cases the quality of the replacement work force is quite low and the employers have returned to higher wage American workers because they receive a better standard of employee and the money is considered well spent in order to keep the quality of their product at a high level.
The immigrants are coming here, as they always have, because the standards are so very much better that what they have in their home port PLUS capatalism allows them to save money and become independent and very successful business people WHO I may add are the exact same people in several cases who have exported work back to their own countries and use their own countries workers to make them richer, richer, richer.
Leave that assumtion that it is all rich white guys who are moving the jobs offshore on the back burner, there are plenty of people who are using loopsholes in the system that aren't rich white guys.
A higher minimum wage allows people who are beginning their working careers and those who may not have the education and skill levels to gain high wage jobs here to make a reasonable living for themselves and their families.
Oh and it also gives them a bit of disposable income that they just might spend on guns and ammunition.
If people want high wage jobs to stay here then they need to put the effort into proving to the Corporate executives that those wages equal a quality standard that is unsurpassed anywhere in the world.
Why pay an American worker $60.00 an hour when you can get the same level of quality labor and general work ethic and attitude from some guy in another country for ten times less?
Capatalism is based on a free trade market that expects and demands high quality and is willing to pay for high quality.
If that standard does not hold then capatalism DOES NOT exist.
The market is nothing more than a free trade conglomerate where the lowest bidder wins the market share.
Welcome to Wal-Mart happy shopper.
Glock Glockler
Member
Not absolutely. From what I know the pay working at a gas station is usually above minimum wage as is. You wouldn't be forced to raise the wages of those above the minimum
Heavy Metal Hero,
Keep in mind that the gas station doesn't exist in a vacuum, everything it consumes from uniforms, cleaning service, equipment repair, telephone service, sanitation, etc, is provided by someone, do they have any minimum wage employees that they now have to pay more, and will they raise their prices in order to cover that overhead. We're not talking one pebble in a lake causing ripples, we're talking hundreds of thousands of pebbles.
And if someone does not step in and make them, they will never pay a living wage
Again, why don't they simply get a different job if they're being screwed?
What no one seems to pay attention to is that this is a freedom issue, why are consenting adults not allowed to make their own agreements on what one's labor is worth without govt interference? If people actually wanted to do something to help the US economy they'd lobby to get relief from taxes and regulations that strangle the economy.
Heavy Metal Hero,
Keep in mind that the gas station doesn't exist in a vacuum, everything it consumes from uniforms, cleaning service, equipment repair, telephone service, sanitation, etc, is provided by someone, do they have any minimum wage employees that they now have to pay more, and will they raise their prices in order to cover that overhead. We're not talking one pebble in a lake causing ripples, we're talking hundreds of thousands of pebbles.
And if someone does not step in and make them, they will never pay a living wage
Again, why don't they simply get a different job if they're being screwed?
What no one seems to pay attention to is that this is a freedom issue, why are consenting adults not allowed to make their own agreements on what one's labor is worth without govt interference? If people actually wanted to do something to help the US economy they'd lobby to get relief from taxes and regulations that strangle the economy.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
This discussion is interesting and laudable.
It's also waaay OT.
off to APS with it!
It's also waaay OT.
off to APS with it!
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