Denial ties up consigned shotgun

[bikemutt]

I was chatting with an acquaintance yesterday who was lamenting the fact that his pawnshop-consigned shotgun may now be tied up for months because the buyer was denied by NICS. The story I got is the buyer has a criminal record which he forgot about, but apparently feels it's not prohibitive and intends to appeal the denial.

So now the seller's shotgun has been "sold" to someone who, for now, may not receive it. And the pawnshop declined to give the seller his money because the shotgun is not "sold" yet.

Does this sound right? It would seem to me the pawnshop should simply return the buyer's money and put the shotgun back up for sale. I wonder if this is just a business rule that's being followed or is there some law in action here?

Either way, this get's back to the way gunshops around here favor doing the deal first, then calling NICS. It seems to me it should be the other way around, lets call NICS first to see if we can have a deal.

 

[N003k]

Oof, I imagine if THEY'RE holding onto the buyers money, they would either have to give the person that consigned it their share, or would have to give the denied person the money back...

Not sure there's laws involved in that, but, I'd sure as heck make a stink about it if they had money for something I consigned, but refused to give my my share of it. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to help out with the detail.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

I'm confused. Have gun shops (pawn shops) changed their procedure since I bought my last gun? Around here, I've NEVER HEARD of a shop selling the gun BEFORE clearing the purchaser for the sale. No money gets exchanged, no guns are handed-over without the green light.

 

[gennro]

Yeah thats odd. Typically the form 4473 gets done first before any money is exchanged around here. That just seems like a bad business practice.

 

[tnxdshooter]

Yeah thats odd. Typically the form 4473 gets done first before any money is exchanged around here. That just seems like a bad business practice.

Yeah, so what happens if his friend contacts local law enforcement or the ATF? Seems to me like that pawn shop will lose it's ffl. Perhaps this guy's friend needs to let the pawn shop know that if he does not get his shotgun back or his money he will be forced to contact local law enforcement and the ATF.

Sent from Droid Incredible on Verizon Wireless

 

[snubbies]

Consignment Agreement

What does the consignment agreement say?? If one wasn't made out, what were the verbal arrangements or conditions for the consignment sale???

 

[bikemutt]

All good questions, I'll ask.

Every mom & pop gunstore around here that I've been to has clearly posted signs which state at least $40 charge for a denial. Implicitly money must change hands first; I see little chance of a shop collecting after the fact.

Now it may be true that the sign is intended to "scare off" folks who either know better, or suspect they may be denied, I don't know.

The last counter gun I bought from such a shop did run my 4473 first, then we concluded the deal, but they know me well, sadly for my bank account

 

[dogtown tom]

bikemutt So now the seller's shotgun has been "sold" to someone who, for now, may not receive it. And the pawnshop declined to give the seller his money because the shotgun is not "sold" yet.

Your friend should end the consignment and take the gun to another gunstore.

I wonder if this is just a business rule that's being followed or is there some law in action here?

No Federal law, most likely their own policy.

Either way, this get's back to the way gunshops around here favor doing the deal first, then calling NICS. It seems to me it should be the other way around, lets call NICS first to see if we can have a deal.

ATF does not require the dealer to collect $$$$ before the customer completes the 4473. The dealer is STRICTLY prohibited from calling in a NICS check until after the customer has completed the 4473.

A dealer will lose his ability to use NICS (effectively ending his ability to conduct business) if he calls NICS before the 4473 is completed and signed. In those states where there is a state "point of contact" that charges a fee for the background check, the dealer will most likely collect that fee prior to making the phone call....because HE will be charged for that call. FBI NICS does not charge for their checks.

tnxdshooter ...Yeah, so what happens if his friend contacts local law enforcement or the ATF? Seems to me like that pawn shop will lose it's ffl.

ATF doesn't care and has no jurisdiction. It would most likely be considered a civil matter not criminal.

 

[Bubbles]

The pawnshop needs to refund the buyer's money, less any fees for running the background check (some states charge for this), and make the shotgun available for sale again. It's not right to make the guy who consigned the gun to wait for 4-6 months for the results of the NICS appeal.

 

[bikemutt]

Now that I think about it, WA is a state POC for handguns, FBI for long guns. Maybe they are just covering the cost of the check, if WA does in fact charge one. If they don't now, they are so broke I can see one in the near future.

 

[NWDave]

I live about 110 miles north of you, very close to the Canadian Border. Maybe they do things different down in King County, but up here in the boondocks, I do not know of any LGS that will charge you for a denial. That's plain and simple b.s. that you are being scammed with. The Pawn shop appears to have written their own collection rules, because I've yet to pay before being cleared by all the paperwork and phone calls in Washington State. It's time for your friend to start making some REAL noise, legal wise. But a caution, he needs to read the consignment form very thoroughly to make sure he didn't unknowingly agree to such a situation. Plus, if it isn't in writing, it's a case of he said, he said and you know what Judge Judy would say.

 

[medalguy]

Forget BATFE. You'll find they will send a nice polite letter stating that they do not get involved with business practices of dealers, only matters involving violations of federal firearms laws, which are involved here.

 

[hermannr]

The LGS I frequent is also a pawn shop (kind of, not much pawn, lot's of guns). When I purchase a gun from them, I fill out the paper work, they call it in, then I pay for the gun. This is the same order even if I had a gun shipped in to them and all I have to pay is the transfer charge, (but I have been dealing with them for years)

However, I can conceive of a gun shop wanting to see that you actually have the money to pay for the item or,

I can also see where the potential purchaser actually has no prohibition and is appealing the denial, but really wants that particular gun so he pays for the gun and has the shop hild it until he gets his appeal through?

However, if the second situation is true, the gun shop should pay the original owner and take posession of the weapon until the appeal is final.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Either the gun is sold, and the pawn shop owes the seller their share of the purchase price; or the gun is not sold and the pawn shop needs to continue to list/display it and continue to attempt to sell it. Outside of those two actions, I would suggest the OP file a small claims lawsuit for breech of the consignment contract. Unless the consignment contract allows the pawn shop to do exactly what they are doing.

 

[bikemutt]

The acquaintance confirmed the story for me but now says he has no idea what's going on with the gun, has not talked to the shop for months.

I guess if he doesn't care, neither should I, sorry for the bother THRs

 

[snubbies]

More than we know

There seems to be some facts we are not aware of nor is the OP. Bikemutt you tried to help but you can't do much if they don't give you all the facts. I don't know how you forget a criminal record!!!!

 

[bikemutt]

There seems to be some facts we are not aware of nor is the OP. Bikemutt you tried to help but you can't do much if they don't give you all the facts. I don't know how you forget a criminal record!!!!

Well said snubbies.

Note to self: make better acquaintances

 

[mgkdrgn]

I'm confused. Have gun shops (pawn shops) changed their procedure since I bought my last gun? Around here, I've NEVER HEARD of a shop selling the gun BEFORE clearing the purchaser for the sale. No money gets exchanged, no guns are handed-over without the green light.

That is the way it is -suppose- to be done. Most of my 4473's are done for transfers (I'm mainly internet sales, not local retail), and you don't even get to see the gun until the 4473 is cleared.

 

[snubbies]

Help me out here Magic Dragon

If I understand you scenario: I buy a gun on the internet from P&B Firearms, you are my FFL, I pay for the gun and it is shipped to you. I go to you fill out the 4473. Prior to calling in my info you won't let me see the gun. Handle the gun Yes I can see where you may not want me to do that, but, why can't I look at the gun???

 

[Rail Driver]

That is the way it is -suppose- to be done. Most of my 4473's are done for transfers (I'm mainly internet sales, not local retail), and you don't even get to see the gun until the 4473 is cleared.

Don't know about others on here, but I won't buy a gun if I can't see it and run a function test (or watch somebody else run the function test). I do a fair amount of business with my FFL, but even the very first gun I had transferred through him, I made a point to check it out before I even filled out the 4473. If it wasn't what I ordered, or wasn't as described, I would have returned it.

 

[bikemutt]

I picked up a gunbroker-bought pistol just yesterday, I was able to fully inspect it prior to transfer. According to terms of the sale I had a 3 day inspection, non fire. The FFL had no problem with that.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Snubbies, Rail Driver, Bike ....

A =lot= of the transfers I do are for people I've never seen before. Like I said, I don't really run a -retail- shop here, I'm internet based sales. I work out of my home.

As for doing the 4473 -first-, I'd much rather do the paperwork first than hand over the gun for "inspection", fill out the 4473, get a "DENY" and then try and take the gun back.

After the 4473 is done, and you get an OKEY DOKEY, inspect all you want. I haven't collected my $20 yet. If you want to refuse the gun at that point, go ahead. I haven't filled out my bound book yet. Be more than happy to return it to sender ...provided somebody pays for the shipping. The Gunbroker mandated 3 day inspection and the 4473 have NO RELATIONSHIP other than they both have to do with guns. You telling me I should let you take the gun home for 3 days, THEN have you come back and do the paperwork?

My house, my rules. Don't like 'em, vote with your feet and go to another FFL (although I don't know for the life of me which one ... as I have guys driving 60+ miles, one way, to come to me for transfers, passing =many= other FFL's along the way ...)

To each their own.

 

[bikemutt]

I see where mgkdrgn is coming from. The FFL I deal (and I'm sorry I keep referring to him as "My FFL", that possessive term is purely cultural on my part) explained to me that he's urged by BATEF to "know your customer", which makes perfect sense.

As I see it, it's your Federal License, your State business license and your business to run as you see fit, I'm 100%, unequivocally good with that.

 

[Rail Driver]

Snubbies, Rail Driver, Bike ....

A =lot= of the transfers I do are for people I've never seen before. Like I said, I don't really run a -retail- shop here, I'm internet based sales. I work out of my home.

As for doing the 4473 -first-, I'd much rather do the paperwork first than hand over the gun for "inspection", fill out the 4473, get a "DENY" and then try and take the gun back.

After the 4473 is done, and you get an OKEY DOKEY, inspect all you want. I haven't collected my $20 yet. If you want to refuse the gun at that point, go ahead. I haven't filled out my bound book yet. Be more than happy to return it to sender ...provided somebody pays for the shipping. The Gunbroker mandated 3 day inspection and the 4473 have NO RELATIONSHIP other than they both have to do with guns. You telling me I should let you take the gun home for 3 days, THEN have you come back and do the paperwork?

My house, my rules. Don't like 'em, vote with your feet and go to another FFL (although I don't know for the life of me which one ... as I have guys driving 60+ miles, one way, to come to me for transfers, passing =many= other FFL's along the way ...)

To each their own.

I'm not knocking your business practices. If they work for you, then that's how it is. I usually do fill out the 4473 before checking out the gun (or while doing so), and that's not a problem or unreasonable, but I certainly won't pay for the transfer before I check the gun. FWIW, many of the local FFLs (there are quite a few in Tallahassee alone, so prices and services available are very competitive) around here are kitchen table jobs, and I am at least marginally acquainted with them on a social level. I can understand an FFL being less lax with the SOP where people they don't know are concerned. That said, the FFL I primarily deal with (My FFL if you will), is out of a shop: Ray Santos @ The Gun Vault in Tallahassee is a great guy to do business with, and I'll likely do business with him exclusively until I move away from the area.

 

[Strykervet]

Yeah, but even with a contract, if the contract violates the law it is invalid. I could make up contract with discrimination in it and it wouldn't mean anything if you signed it.

I'm in WA too, and I generally fill out the form first, then pay. I'd tell the guy either the weapon or the cash, pick one, but he ain't hanging onto both.