Denied purchase of firearm info

[jaholder1971]

Another example of how illegal drugs can screw up your life.

Looking back, were those joints worth the hassle?

 

[waterhouse]

could you have a friend buy the guns, then do a legal transfer/transaction?

That would be illegal.

if he is not a felon then its not a straw sale.

it is a legal private sale.

Incorrect. A felon need not be present for a straw purchase to occur.

so all private sales are straw sales?

Absolutely not. One of the questions on the 4473 asks if the person signing the form is the actual buyer. If a person buys a gun for their own use, and then decides to sell it, they truthfully completed the 4473 and any private sale at a later date is legal.

If one of the OP's friends buys the gun for him they would be lying when they checked yes on the 4473 claiming to be the buyer, and when they signed the form they would be guilty of felony perjury, which in reality is all a straw purchase is.

what if you have never been convicted of anything ever? private sales are legal in most states?

Convictions don't matter (at least for straw sales). If your next door neighbor is the greatest guy ever, and has never even gotten a speeding ticket, it would be illegal if he said "here is $500, my leg is sore, can you go buy a Glock for me so I don't have to walk in and out of the store?" and then you went and got a Glock for him from a licensed dealer.

Now if he is over one day at your house, and says, "hey, that's a nice Glock, I'll give you $500 for it." you can sell it to him right there, no problems (at least at a Federal level, state laws may vary.)

An entirely separate issue is if you know your neighbor is a convicted felon, and he asks to buy that Glock. That is a separate issue that has nothing to do with straw purchases.

 

[EOD Guy]

so all private sales are straw sales?

No, there is no straw sale in a private sale. The violation is lying on the 4473 when you certify that you are purchasing the firearm for yourself. When you buy a firearm from a dealer at the request of another person and receive compensation for the purchase, it's a straw sale. Purchasing a firearm as a bonifide gift to give to someone is specifically allowed and is not a straw sale.

 

[MrWesson]

What about gifting a firearm say for your wife. I guess if I buy my wife a pistol then its a straw sale? If this is true(doubt it is) then its perfect reason to hate all firearms regulations.

 

[dogtown tom]

wb_carpenter What about gifting a firearm say for your wife. I guess if I buy my wife a pistol then its a straw sale? If this is true(doubt it is) then its perfect reason to hate all firearms regulations.

Not a straw sale as YOU are the actual buyer. Gifting is and has always been allowed.

 

[stchman]

My whole problem is that NICS does absolutely nothing to stop crime.

Everytime that NICS returns a Deny they claim that they just stopped a crime and saved lives. The truth is they just stopped some guy that got caught smoking weed years ago.

The Brady bunch is under the impression that criminals are going to go to Cabela's to buy a gun to commit a crime. Whatever.

 

[MrWesson]

Not a straw sale as YOU are the actual buyer. Gifting is and has always been allowed.

I bought the gun for another person so what if someone "gifted" a gun to this guy?

If I buy a gun for someone during a blatent straw sale I still bought it.

 

[DenaliPark]

could you have a friend buy the guns, then do a legal transfer/transaction?

Do that, and you have committed a federal felony!

 

[dogtown tom]

stchman My whole problem is that NICS does absolutely nothing to stop crime.

Everytime that NICS returns a Deny they claim that they just stopped a crime and saved lives. The truth is they just stopped some guy that got caught smoking weed years ago.

The Brady bunch is under the impression that criminals are going to go to Cabela's to buy a gun to commit a crime. Whatever.

I disagree.
The Brady's know damn well where criminals get their guns. They call it "The Gunshow Loophole". Forget that it isn't a loophole and that such sales (nonlicensee to nonlicensee) are completely legal whether at a gun show, Wal Mart's parking lot or in my front yard.

That's why they want ALL firearm sales to go through a licensee and subject to a NICS check.The possibility of a NICS background check deters most of those prohibited persons from making a firearm purchase at a licensed dealer. A few of those upstanding citizens don't have a clue they can't buy a gun until their NICS check comes back as a Deny. That's why the next time they'll send in their girlfriend, wife, brother or baby mama to fill out the 4473.

This leaves the prohibited person with fewer options to obtain a gun:
1. Steal one (or buy a stolen one)
2. Buy from a nonlicensee.

It is the latter that gets the Brady's and anti's in a tither.

 

[DenaliPark]

Ok, I had misplaced my initial paperwork from the FBI, and I had thought that it didnt give me a reason for denial, but I was wrong. Hidden in plain view it says "Your denial indicates that either you or another individual with a similar name and/or similar descriptive features has been matched with the following federally prohibitive criteria under Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), Section 992(g)(3): A person who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (As defined in S102 of the Controlled Substance Act {21 U.S.C. 802}). My record contains 1 MJ >1/2 oz. in March of 2003, June 2004, and April 2006. Less than a joints worth of MJ was found at any of these. Now according to the FBI site, they state: "An unlawful user and/or an addict of any controlled substance; for example, a person convicted for the use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year; or a person with multiple arrests for the use or possession of a controlled substance within the past five years with the most recent arrest occurring within the past year; or a person found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided the test was administered within the past year." If this is the part of my record that theyre using to deny my purchase of a firearm, one would think that they would quickly see the dates and the fact that its been over 4 years since any drug charges. Am I missing something here guys?

Unfortuneately for you, illegal drugs, are illegal! convictions or tickets for such are a predicate disqualifier to the purchase of a firearm, though you have my total sympathy as MJ should be legal. You have three tags for dope, how did you purchase your other firearms?

 

[ulfrik]

"Now if he is over one day at your house, and says, "hey, that's a nice Glock, I'll give you $500 for it." you can sell it to him right there, no problems (at least at a Federal level, state laws may vary.)"

thought crime.

so then it's the honor system?

 

[waterhouse]

thought crime.

so then it's the honor system?

No to the first, I'd say yes to the second.

I wouldn't say it is a thought crime. You are free to sit in your house all day long and dream of filling out 4473s to purchase guns for other people. You can think about it for hours on end and you have committed no crime.

Since the charge is perjury, I would say that it is exactly the honor system. They have created a legal circumstance such that when you lie (breaking the honor system), you have committed a felony. If you read the paragraph before your signature (few people do) on the 4473 you'll see it says exactly this.

 

[waterhouse]

I bought the gun for another person so what if someone "gifted" a gun to this guy?

If I buy a gun for someone during a blatent straw sale I still bought it.

Your may have bought it, but in the wonderful world of legalese the fact that you bought it does not make you the "actual buyer" under the ATF's definition. In fact, it says right on the form "Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you acquiring the firearm on behalf of another person." Later, in the instructions, it states: "You are also the actual buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party."

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

This is a pdf of the 4473. Please read section 11.a on page 1. Then on Page 4 read the instructions for "Question 11.a".

It should clear up all of your questions.

To get back to the OPs issue, he is running into problems with question 11.e. At some point, some decision makers got together to decide how to define who was guilty of being an unlawful user or addicted to MJ. They decided that use within x years, or lots of use within Y years, fit the definition, and the OP is running into that problem.

 

[alexp]

Blasphemy?????

Your position is over the top. I read from what you say you don't object to felons, mentally ill and such to be able to purchase a gun.

 

[dogtown tom]

alexp: Blasphemy????? Your position is over the top. I read from what you say you don't object to felons, mentally ill and such to be able to purchase a gun.

Is this ranting in general or directed at another post?

Try quoting the post so we know what the heck you're talking about.

 

[Art Eatman]

This is almost a record for wandering away from the subject of the thread. Whee!