Well I got the word today. We're switching to GLock 21's for patrol and the single stack 36 for detectives. Right now we can carry any quality semi-auto in 9mm/40/45, but the powers that be have decided that we need to go to a uniform issue. It's going to cost the department approximately $30,000 to do this so what they're doing is all new hires get the G21 automatically while the rest of us have the next three years to switch over when we feel ready. I carry the both the Sig P220 and the P245 so it's not a dramatic change in calibers for me. I figure sometime in the next year I'll retire my Sigs to the safe where they will see use for the occassional range trip. I'm an investigator so I'll be carrying the G36 - which seems like a pretty good little model. Well times change.
Dept is switching to Glocks - Oh well
- Thread starter Checkman
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I'm a big fan of the Glock 36, I think you'll be well served.
orangeninja
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Trading your Sigs for Glocks...
I truly feel for you.
I'm glad my Dept. issues Sig. At least the Glock 21 is a proven design. I prefer them to any of the others. I'm surprised that the Detectives aren't being issued the Glock 30...which is a chopped 21.
I truly feel for you.I'm glad my Dept. issues Sig. At least the Glock 21 is a proven design. I prefer them to any of the others. I'm surprised that the Detectives aren't being issued the Glock 30...which is a chopped 21.
With women the skirts get longer or shorter. Police departments buy new guns.
Pretty much the same logic at work in both cases.
I was lucky--kept my wheelgun right to the end whilst training up people on semiautos.
Now if 1911s had been an option...
Pretty much the same logic at work in both cases.
I was lucky--kept my wheelgun right to the end whilst training up people on semiautos.
Now if 1911s had been an option...
Investigations is being issued the G36 because the Captain and Lts prefer them. Apparently they tried the G30, but found it too bulky for a compact pistol. I suppose I could ask them about purchasing a G30, but something tells me they've made their minds up about the 36. But I can always ask. Well like I said at least I'm able to stick with 45. The brass is a very solid member of the 45 mafia. Hey it could be worst we could be going with Rugers. 
The only problem I see with that is officers with small hands wont care much for the 21....the 36 would be ok......
One of the cities near where I live in missouri switched out the S&W 4506 to the glock 21.....
I own one and really like it but I have smaller hands and the Sig P220(my friend owns one) is easier to shoot accurately one handed.
Also from the bench it seems that his P220 shoots tighter groups than my G21 with a broad range of different types of ammo
One of the cities near where I live in missouri switched out the S&W 4506 to the glock 21.....
I own one and really like it but I have smaller hands and the Sig P220(my friend owns one) is easier to shoot accurately one handed.
Also from the bench it seems that his P220 shoots tighter groups than my G21 with a broad range of different types of ammo
Dave Williams
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Hey at least you get to keep your 45s, they took away ours and gave us 40s.
Dave Williams
Dave Williams
I would never suggest to a Law Enforcement Professional that he is insufficiently equipped to perform his duty. My friend is a Philly Detective and he carries the Glock 17 9mm, and he will tell you that he is well equipped to do his job, because he is well trained with it. Good luck with the G21, it is a fine service pistol.
W Turner
Member
That doesn't sound as though it's that big of a loss. Your going from a quality single stack gun with one action type to a quality double stack gun with a similar but different action type.
I do know that some people love their Sig's though ......just can't figure out why......
I wouldn't mind a swap like that......o'course I would have been carrying the Glock to begin with if possible...LOL.
W
I do know that some people love their Sig's though ......just can't figure out why......
I wouldn't mind a swap like that......o'course I would have been carrying the Glock to begin with if possible...LOL.
W
10-Ring
Member
The option should be available for those already w/ the dept to grandfather in the firearms that they have already qualified using...
fastbolt
Member
One of the many mysterious phenomena involved when L/E agencies are selecting service weapons ... is that you shouldn't ever really expect to influence anyone with facts.
Perception takes precedence over reality ...
My agency is presently conducting another testing & evaluation process to select a new service handgun. It will be chambered in .40 S&W or .45 ACP. We're considering models produced by several of the major handgun manufacturers including SIGARMS, Glock, Beretta, S&W, HK, and Springfield Armory.
I have no idea at this time what we'll eventually end up selecting, although I'm involved in a small part of the process.
I've decided I really don't care one way or the other, though ... not like I used to when I was younger. Nowadays a service weapon is a service weapon is a service weapon ... and I can work with any of the service weapons currently being offered for L/E use.
I naturally have some personal favorites, but as you said ... times change ... and we have bigger concerns each day, anyway, right?
It's the newer people that are being offered and selected for L/E use that are giving me the most fits. :banghead:
That being said, I'm curious how the selection of the new platform(s) & caliber(s?) turns out. We didn't act on the selection of the last committee, for whatever reason. Time to do it again.
I've already seen one "smaller statured person" consistently experience "grip stability" issues, which resulted in consistent malfunctions ... simple limp wristing ... when shooting a G21 1-handed with 230gr FMJ ammunition ... but not when shooting a G22 1-handed with 180gr JHP ammunition. Also, .40 S&W and .45 ACP does tend to produce a little more perceived recoil than 9mm does, which shouldn't surprise anyone ...
At least you're going to remain with the same caliber, which should help ease your transition from one make & model to another.
The same arguments are always used by both viewpoints in the never-ending debate regarding standardized, issued weapons versus approved, personally owned weapons of various makes/models/calibers ... (we also have 9mm/.40/.45 presently in service, although the .40 & .45 are in limited service, both in numbers and by assignment). The funny thing is that both situations seem to work for different agencies that adopt them ... until they don't work ... usually when someone "does something", or realizes they can reinvent the wheel their way
... and then things MUST change. Round & round ...
If you're going to be transitioning from TDA (DA/SA) with your personal SIGS, to the Glock's Safe Action (constant double action), you might as well start seeing if you can work in some range time as soon as the transition training is offered. The unique grip angle of the Glock is a bit different, and the trigger is going to feel different, as well.
That's one of the reasons I went ahead and added the Glock's Armorer's Course to my existing certifications, and picked up a couple of personal Glocks ... in case we adopt them office-wide.
The other reason was that a lot of our folks have bought their own Glocks for off duty use, and we didn't have anyone that was actually authorized to repair them. Don't believe the myths about Glocks never needing repair ... and some folks will probably have the same shooter-related or ammunition-related issues that cause problems, too. . I learned from one of our guys yesterday that his personal (off duty) G22's guide rod assembly broke while he was qualifying with it the other night.
Hopefully, you'll be able to adopt the G21's & G36's with the standard connectors. A Glock armorer I know at another agency still wishes he could get rid of the 8lb. connectors they're forced to use by their admin. Another Glock armorer at yet another agency was a bit annoyed that their 100+ brand new G22's (replacing their previous inventory of G22's which were 10 years old) all required replacement of their new night sights, and one of the frame rails on one of them snapped off during a training session ... causing malfunctions ... after something like 6 months after it was put into regular service (it was an F-series G22, by the way, and not included in the E-series frame replacement situation).
It's always something, and they're just machines.
I'll say this about them ... they're easier to work on and maintain than the other weapon platforms I support.
Stay safe out there ...
Perception takes precedence over reality ...
My agency is presently conducting another testing & evaluation process to select a new service handgun. It will be chambered in .40 S&W or .45 ACP. We're considering models produced by several of the major handgun manufacturers including SIGARMS, Glock, Beretta, S&W, HK, and Springfield Armory.
I have no idea at this time what we'll eventually end up selecting, although I'm involved in a small part of the process.
I've decided I really don't care one way or the other, though ... not like I used to when I was younger. Nowadays a service weapon is a service weapon is a service weapon ... and I can work with any of the service weapons currently being offered for L/E use.
I naturally have some personal favorites, but as you said ... times change ... and we have bigger concerns each day, anyway, right?
It's the newer people that are being offered and selected for L/E use that are giving me the most fits. :banghead:
That being said, I'm curious how the selection of the new platform(s) & caliber(s?) turns out. We didn't act on the selection of the last committee, for whatever reason. Time to do it again.
I've already seen one "smaller statured person" consistently experience "grip stability" issues, which resulted in consistent malfunctions ... simple limp wristing ... when shooting a G21 1-handed with 230gr FMJ ammunition ... but not when shooting a G22 1-handed with 180gr JHP ammunition. Also, .40 S&W and .45 ACP does tend to produce a little more perceived recoil than 9mm does, which shouldn't surprise anyone ...
At least you're going to remain with the same caliber, which should help ease your transition from one make & model to another.
The same arguments are always used by both viewpoints in the never-ending debate regarding standardized, issued weapons versus approved, personally owned weapons of various makes/models/calibers ... (we also have 9mm/.40/.45 presently in service, although the .40 & .45 are in limited service, both in numbers and by assignment). The funny thing is that both situations seem to work for different agencies that adopt them ... until they don't work ... usually when someone "does something", or realizes they can reinvent the wheel their way
... and then things MUST change. Round & round ...If you're going to be transitioning from TDA (DA/SA) with your personal SIGS, to the Glock's Safe Action (constant double action), you might as well start seeing if you can work in some range time as soon as the transition training is offered. The unique grip angle of the Glock is a bit different, and the trigger is going to feel different, as well.
That's one of the reasons I went ahead and added the Glock's Armorer's Course to my existing certifications, and picked up a couple of personal Glocks ... in case we adopt them office-wide.
The other reason was that a lot of our folks have bought their own Glocks for off duty use, and we didn't have anyone that was actually authorized to repair them. Don't believe the myths about Glocks never needing repair ... and some folks will probably have the same shooter-related or ammunition-related issues that cause problems, too. .
I learned from one of our guys yesterday that his personal (off duty) G22's guide rod assembly broke while he was qualifying with it the other night. Hopefully, you'll be able to adopt the G21's & G36's with the standard connectors. A Glock armorer I know at another agency still wishes he could get rid of the 8lb. connectors they're forced to use by their admin. Another Glock armorer at yet another agency was a bit annoyed that their 100+ brand new G22's (replacing their previous inventory of G22's which were 10 years old) all required replacement of their new night sights, and one of the frame rails on one of them snapped off during a training session ... causing malfunctions ... after something like 6 months after it was put into regular service (it was an F-series G22, by the way, and not included in the E-series frame replacement situation).
It's always something, and they're just machines.
I'll say this about them ... they're easier to work on and maintain than the other weapon platforms I support.
Stay safe out there ...
Last edited:
denfoote
Member
Congratulations!!
The G36 is a mighty fine pistol!! I carry one myself.
One thing, the lighter weight bullets work better than the standard 230gr in short barreled .45s. Personally, I load mine with 185gr Winchester Silver Tip!! You might pass that along.
The G36 is a mighty fine pistol!! I carry one myself.
One thing, the lighter weight bullets work better than the standard 230gr in short barreled .45s. Personally, I load mine with 185gr Winchester Silver Tip!! You might pass that along.
denfoote
Member
Congratulations!!
The G36 is a mighty fine pistol!! I carry one myself.
One thing, the lighter weight bullets work better than the standard 230gr in short barreled .45s. Personally, I load mine with 185gr Winchester Silver Tip!! You might pass that along.
The G36 is a mighty fine pistol!! I carry one myself.
One thing, the lighter weight bullets work better than the standard 230gr in short barreled .45s. Personally, I load mine with 185gr Winchester Silver Tip!! You might pass that along.
denfoote
Member
Congratulations!!
The G36 is a mighty fine pistol!! I carry one myself.
One thing, the lighter weight bullets work better than the standard 230gr in short barreled .45s. Personally, I load mine with 185gr Winchester Silver Tip!! You might pass that along.
The G36 is a mighty fine pistol!! I carry one myself.
One thing, the lighter weight bullets work better than the standard 230gr in short barreled .45s. Personally, I load mine with 185gr Winchester Silver Tip!! You might pass that along.
denfoote
Member
DOUBLE POST!!!!
Thanks for the responses. I don't know why we are now feeling the need to go to a uniform issue. The Treasure Valley/Boise area is experiencing dramatic growth and most of the departments (some of the biggest in the state) have gone to the Glock 21. It seems that my department is following suit. Is it because after the population reaches a certain level admin decides that a uniform issue is a good way to head off possible liablility concerns? Or is it that Glock has a very good rep in this area who understands that the 45 is the favorite round with Idahoans? Well whatever it might be it's a done deal.
Fastbolt-
It's interseting that you mentioned the limp wristing situation. A couple weeks ago I let a couple fellow officers who carry the G22 shoot my Sig. Within a couple of rounds they experienced stovepipes - something I've never had happen with me. Both of these officers are experienced cops and avid hunters. I don't know what this proves except that not all guns are alike. I suppose they're used to the Glock grip design. Whne it's time to transition I'll have to make sure that I practice with it.
Denfoote-
I know where you're coming from about the lighter round for the shorter barrel. I suggested that already, but I was informed that we already have approximately 4,000 rounds of the 230g Federal Hydrashoks in our vault. The department has no intention of buying more. And when it is time to purchase more we will be sticking with the 230grain. Why? Well why did god make the sky blue instead of orange?
Honestly my deprtment is a good place to work at. I'm proud to be one of their officers, but I've concluded that there some things in goverment that are better left unexamined. Glock makes a good weapon and the 45 is a good round.
Fastbolt-
It's interseting that you mentioned the limp wristing situation. A couple weeks ago I let a couple fellow officers who carry the G22 shoot my Sig. Within a couple of rounds they experienced stovepipes - something I've never had happen with me. Both of these officers are experienced cops and avid hunters. I don't know what this proves except that not all guns are alike. I suppose they're used to the Glock grip design. Whne it's time to transition I'll have to make sure that I practice with it.
Denfoote-
I know where you're coming from about the lighter round for the shorter barrel. I suggested that already, but I was informed that we already have approximately 4,000 rounds of the 230g Federal Hydrashoks in our vault. The department has no intention of buying more. And when it is time to purchase more we will be sticking with the 230grain. Why? Well why did god make the sky blue instead of orange?
Honestly my deprtment is a good place to work at. I'm proud to be one of their officers, but I've concluded that there some things in goverment that are better left unexamined. Glock makes a good weapon and the 45 is a good round.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Checkman- that's not a drastic switch; but one I would have
to question. Watch out for the PLASTIC guide rods in the new
G21's and 36's.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
to question. Watch out for the PLASTIC guide rods in the new
G21's and 36's.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
fastbolt
Member
Checkman
Sometimes the reasons we're given for sudden Policy changes seems only remotely connected to the situation being "resolved" by the Policy changes, if at all, don't they? Oh well, they don't have to explain why, when it comes right down to it, do they?
I take it that you're not part of your Firearms Training Unit? Of course, even if you were, that wouldn't necessarily mean that you'd always have any direct input into things affecting the firearms training and the firearms & ammunition procurement process ...
We're also testing SIG pistols in .40 S&W and .45 ACP, and so far they seem to have gotten some good responses. It was interesting to note that two of our instructors experienced a failure to feed in each pistol, within the first couple of magazines, when we initially started shooting them. They decided it was a case of new pistols being broken in. By the time I had a chance to shoot them, they were doing fine.
Considering the barrels on your pending new G36's are less than an inch shorter than the G21's barrels, that's not as drastic as difference as it might be in other situations. Your P245 only has a barrel length of 3.9", which is only 0.12" longer than the G36's barrel. I wouldn't worry about it overly much.
Are you using the 230gr Hydra-Shok in your SIG's now, or something else you provide for your own pistols? Are you using the older Hydra-Shok, or the newer HST, by the way? The newer HST seems like it performs very well from what little testing I've seen done with it.
Maybe you could get your firearms unit to invite a couple of the major ammunition manufacturers to give an on-site gelatin testing. Or, maybe you could find if they're coming to somewhere nearby in your part of the state. That's an informal, non-threatening way to take someone from your agency to a friendly 2-4 hour gathering of folks from agencies in your area, and test some of your present ammunition against what other folks are using, as well as what the particular manufacturer is providing. It's only a form of advertising, when it comes right down to it ... they're only going to be firing 1-2 rounds in each test, but sometimes they'll set up anywhere from 2-5 different types of barrier tests ... but it's also an enjoyable way to spend a couple hours. One of the vendors in our area that hosts these events for their primary manufacturer's line always brings barbeque equipment and provides free lunch.
One thing I'd mention about the 185gr SilverTip for L/E use, though, is that even the Winchester L/E reps don't often recommend it for common L/E use. When I asked why one time, I was told that it simply didn't offer the level of penetration that most ballistics testing protocols seemed to indicate was "adequate", or at least considered "acceptable", penetration for L/E service ammunition. In other words, it expanded very quickly, but rather shallowly. Sure enough, when the Winchester rep brought out a box to test, to show his point (since it apparently wasn't on the testing schedule for that afternoon), the rounds didn't reach much more than 7-8" when fired into the denim covered gelatin. Expanded well, though.
There are other 185gr +P loads offered for L/E use, if that's what interests you.
I presently carry either Winchester 230gr RA45T or Speer 230gr Gold Dot in my shorter barreled .45's, which have barrels of 3.25", 3.5" & 3.75". The standard velocity Ranger RA45T actually showed a velocity of 802fps when fired through my 3.25" barrel one time, and went 13" into the 4-layer denim covered gelatin, and expanded to .76". The +P SXT only managed 839fps, went 12" deep and expanded to .77". The standard velocity round is more controllable in the little gun, and is really why I carry it instead of the +P round. Of course, that was only for one test, on one day, involving 1 round of each load ... so it doesn't "prove" anything.
Also, further testing by Dr Gary Roberts has shown that apparently depending on the sharpness of the broach cutting equipment used in the production of the Ranger T-Series bullets, if the jacket cuts are made by dulling cutters, then the expansion of the bullets might be adversely affected at the lower velocities of the standard pressure rounds. We came across an example of that during our gelatin testing one time when using both my CS45 and another instructor's Commander (4.25" barrel). The standard pressure 230gr load unevenly expanded when fired through the Commander, while the +P round expanded uniformly ... that day.
It's always something ...
I may be sharing your sentiments in the near future, as I have no idea what weapon system we'll be adopting to replace our aging inventory, the majority of which is approaching 15 years old.
Best of luck. Just remember, they're only handguns ...
Here's a picture of the standard pressure Ranger (left) and the +P version (right) fired through my 3.25" barreled CS45 that day.
Sometimes the reasons we're given for sudden Policy changes seems only remotely connected to the situation being "resolved" by the Policy changes, if at all, don't they? Oh well, they don't have to explain why, when it comes right down to it, do they?
I take it that you're not part of your Firearms Training Unit? Of course, even if you were, that wouldn't necessarily mean that you'd always have any direct input into things affecting the firearms training and the firearms & ammunition procurement process ...
We're also testing SIG pistols in .40 S&W and .45 ACP, and so far they seem to have gotten some good responses. It was interesting to note that two of our instructors experienced a failure to feed in each pistol, within the first couple of magazines, when we initially started shooting them. They decided it was a case of new pistols being broken in. By the time I had a chance to shoot them, they were doing fine.
Considering the barrels on your pending new G36's are less than an inch shorter than the G21's barrels, that's not as drastic as difference as it might be in other situations. Your P245 only has a barrel length of 3.9", which is only 0.12" longer than the G36's barrel. I wouldn't worry about it overly much.
Are you using the 230gr Hydra-Shok in your SIG's now, or something else you provide for your own pistols? Are you using the older Hydra-Shok, or the newer HST, by the way? The newer HST seems like it performs very well from what little testing I've seen done with it.
Maybe you could get your firearms unit to invite a couple of the major ammunition manufacturers to give an on-site gelatin testing. Or, maybe you could find if they're coming to somewhere nearby in your part of the state. That's an informal, non-threatening way to take someone from your agency to a friendly 2-4 hour gathering of folks from agencies in your area, and test some of your present ammunition against what other folks are using, as well as what the particular manufacturer is providing. It's only a form of advertising, when it comes right down to it ... they're only going to be firing 1-2 rounds in each test, but sometimes they'll set up anywhere from 2-5 different types of barrier tests ... but it's also an enjoyable way to spend a couple hours. One of the vendors in our area that hosts these events for their primary manufacturer's line always brings barbeque equipment and provides free lunch.
One thing I'd mention about the 185gr SilverTip for L/E use, though, is that even the Winchester L/E reps don't often recommend it for common L/E use. When I asked why one time, I was told that it simply didn't offer the level of penetration that most ballistics testing protocols seemed to indicate was "adequate", or at least considered "acceptable", penetration for L/E service ammunition. In other words, it expanded very quickly, but rather shallowly. Sure enough, when the Winchester rep brought out a box to test, to show his point (since it apparently wasn't on the testing schedule for that afternoon), the rounds didn't reach much more than 7-8" when fired into the denim covered gelatin. Expanded well, though.
There are other 185gr +P loads offered for L/E use, if that's what interests you.
I presently carry either Winchester 230gr RA45T or Speer 230gr Gold Dot in my shorter barreled .45's, which have barrels of 3.25", 3.5" & 3.75". The standard velocity Ranger RA45T actually showed a velocity of 802fps when fired through my 3.25" barrel one time, and went 13" into the 4-layer denim covered gelatin, and expanded to .76". The +P SXT only managed 839fps, went 12" deep and expanded to .77". The standard velocity round is more controllable in the little gun, and is really why I carry it instead of the +P round. Of course, that was only for one test, on one day, involving 1 round of each load ... so it doesn't "prove" anything.
Also, further testing by Dr Gary Roberts has shown that apparently depending on the sharpness of the broach cutting equipment used in the production of the Ranger T-Series bullets, if the jacket cuts are made by dulling cutters, then the expansion of the bullets might be adversely affected at the lower velocities of the standard pressure rounds. We came across an example of that during our gelatin testing one time when using both my CS45 and another instructor's Commander (4.25" barrel). The standard pressure 230gr load unevenly expanded when fired through the Commander, while the +P round expanded uniformly ... that day.
It's always something ...
I may be sharing your sentiments in the near future, as I have no idea what weapon system we'll be adopting to replace our aging inventory, the majority of which is approaching 15 years old.
Best of luck. Just remember, they're only handguns ...
Here's a picture of the standard pressure Ranger (left) and the +P version (right) fired through my 3.25" barreled CS45 that day.
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