Depth to kidneys?

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Yep, stabbed lungs aren't always a big deal. Here's a memorable case I saw, a young lady got stabbed by a jealous ex-girlfriend. She got stabbed several times in the back and the assailant was kind enough to let her take the blade with her:

X-BladeInChestProne.jpg

X-BladeInChestHBL.jpg

That last stab is quite deep. What isn't obvious on these pictures is the young lady has bilateral pneumothoraces. Very difficult to reproduce here with the limited resolution images, but I saw them myself. Small clue on the left side is surgical emphysema in the tissues overlying the scapula area.
This woman walked right into the ER. She was treated as a resus, one of the few cases I have seen treated prone (the knife had a handle which is radiolucent at these exposure settings).
 
My current EDC for campus is pepper spray and a folding knife. I will definitely be going to a fixed blade and keeping the folder as a backup and for cutting cheese etc. when I don't want to scare the liberals. A fixed blade is permissible but is just too likely to result in 911 calls in that environment. It will stay totally concealed.

I've been seriously considering a collapsible baton. They're not specifically barred from the campus, but they are clearly weapons rather than ADA-protected mobility aids. Far more convenient than a cane, if a little slower in deployment. I don't know if they will work for thrusts, though, even with the newer twist lock types, and that would limit them a lot if the measure got tight. If I can transition smoothly to knife while controlling the baton in my left hand, then it's not so bad, but that seems a little unlikely in the middle of being rushed.

The other thing is repurposed sports equipment. A racquetball racquet has been suggested. Doesn't seem any more convenient than a cane, though, and everyone who vaguely knows me would very quickly realize that it was not for playing ball, which leads me to think I might as well be the apparently able-bodied guy with a cane as the non-player with a racquet.
 
Two things one regarding the lungs there is a pneumo-thorax and a tension pneumo thorax(sucking wound) a tension pneumo will stop someone who is exerting themselves fairly quickly, a normal pneumo thorax not so much.

The other is just a story from a ling time ago, before I learned to keep my mouth shut.
I got attacked by two guys anyway one started choking me and the other backed off. I was up against a wall I managed to grab a screwdriver on a table next to me and started stabbing, I have no idea where I cut him but there was quite a bit of blood and they fled. My point is know your techniques cause I didn't know any, further I couldn't reach my knife and slashing with a screwdriver is out of the question. So don't anybody just focus on slashing moves. Everybodies sit awareness fails sometimes
 
I do think the kidneys are a potentially viable defensive target simply due to the fact that they are accessible. At slight range, hands and face in that order are more likely (hands due to proximity, and people tend to thrust their hands out and face as a follow-up as taught by Southnarc) - simply put, it's the most bang for your buck, probably, in terms of disruption (for that matter, so is punching someone in the face) - but in a "clinch" the kidneys are a natural target for a reverse-grip blade style (I'm mostly referring to "Forward Grip Edge-up" or FGEU - if you make a vertical fist with your arm held straight out while holding the knife, the tip would be pointing at the ceiling, with the sharp edge pointing back at the wielder), as are all of the muscles on the back and the armpit (which is artery-laden).

People will generally argue all day long that clinches "don't happen," shouldn't happen, won't happen because they train to stay at range, etc, but the fact is, if someone is trying to bear-hug you, you essentially have to bear-hug them back to make them let go; in the process of this type of thing, if that person was much bigger than you and was, say, trying to put you into a white windowless van (I guess you should have listened when people said northwest Mexico was a bad summer road trip destination! :D), "expedient target" starts to make a lot of sense, and since a solid bear-hug will make elbow and shoulder articulation difficult, getting to the upper thoracic region is an iffy bet.

Just a good basic grappling knowledge is better than any knife for this, but there are people out there who by virtue of their size can manhandle any much smaller person regardless of the skill disparity; and a backup option that is compatible with a good basic grappling knowledge is better than either by itself in any case.
 
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I think we have explained why the kidney is a poor target in a self defense situation.

The human body is remarkably resilient in a fight and to survive an attack is our only objective. This is difficult to do if we mistake sentry techniques for SD.
 
Hso said:
I think we have explained why the kidney
is a poor target in a self defense situation.

I agree.

The human body is remarkably resilient in a fight ...

It's that homeostasis thing.

... and to survive an attack is our only objective.

If we do not survive, we do not reproduce.
If we do not reproduce, our genes do not
continue with the species.

Darwin called that 'fitness' = survive + reproduce.

This is difficult to do if we mistake sentry techniques for SD.
Please explain the term "sentry techniques".
 
As I was reading thru this thread, aside from the fact there are some very well trained and intelligent people here, I think given the original setting and to incapacitate the BG how about the tendons of the knees right below the hamstring or the hamstring itself ? One thing is sure, he won't be chasing anyone soon. Even a short knife will do the job right.
 
You don't have to reach either down or behind so far for a more effective cut. Remember that the hamstring only retracts the leg. If you take out the quad, the leg can't be extended...won't be able to stand
 
We probably should open another thread on the incapacitation of limbs by cutting. It is a whole study unto itself.
 
I don't think kidney shots deserved their own post, BTW, but I do think reifying self-defense concepts into different categories such as sentry-removal, or only-bad-guys-can-do-that, can be a big mistake.

One concept that's often overlooked in "knife-fighting", and I credit some of Southnarc's affiliates for cluing (that looks like it needs to be spelled "clueing", doesn't it?) me in to this, is that punching and striking is a valid concept unto itself for self-defense, and that is NOT changed by having a knife in one's hand.

I did some striking drills with a partner today on focus pads, just a quick refresher for the basic motor movements.

Boxing (empty-hand) incorporating basic strikes; forward-grip knife (right-hand); reverse-grip knife (left-hand - same knife, held in different grip); tac-pen (left and right hand, and it's interchangeable with how I use a 2-cell flashlight); and sap (right-hand only).

What is interesting is that, aside from the sap, judging from my partner's feedback and the obvious impact on the pad (just a relatively cheap pad similar to this one) the back-handed left-hand reverse-grip "jab" type strikes seemed to be as powerful or more powerful from a pure striking perspective as any of the punches.

I was going for pure form rather than generating additional power past using crisp, tight technique and staying loose; and I found that the angle of incidence to the flat surface was more controllable with an object in my hand, allowing for a more direct impact, with no loss of ability to generate striking power.

Conversely the forward-grip methods did not allow for this same level of control nor power generation (mostly due to the wrist articulation required for a forehand, forward-grip jab with an implement - this is why I don't bother with forward-grip pen or flashlight techniques).

What am I getting at? Well, again, striking is valid all by itself. Adding a knife or other object, particularly a small knife, does not lessen the ability to transmit power similarly to a strike. (Yes, I know people frequently say good knife technique doesn't rely on power - but what is the outcome-based definition of "good?" - this is like shot placement vs power; I want both for an optimal outcome!).

Kidney shots in particular, that are striking based, are known in boxing as fight-enders.

From: http://coxscorner.tripod.com/louis.html

Emmanuel Steward after studying film of Louis-Schemling 2 concurred about Louis paralyzing power, making the following observation, (Pacheco, 45), "Louis body punches were unbelievable. After Max had been immobolized by a right to the kidney, he took a left hook to the solar plexus which paralyzed him. Even though Max was hurt and wanted to fall down, he couldn't even fall."

The June 23, 1938 NY Times quoted Schmeling as saying he was hit with a kidney punch, a devastating right, which so shocked his nervous system, that he was "dazed" and his "vision was blurred." He was hit so hard to the body he lost his sight for a few seconds.

There are lots of other documented effects of body-shots, both anecdotal and reasonably well-documented in boxing fights.

Here is a review from Sportsci.org:

http://www.docspal.com/viewer?id=syppfwq-2005866

It mostly covers the aspects related to chronic low-grade kidney impact, but does have some interesting tidbits, such as the fact that the kidneys are closer to the surface in a typical "crouch" fight stance, and may be displaced by the diaphragm (pushed outward) due to exertion.

Anyway, in summary, in case I wasn't clear:

1) The kidneys and some other regions that may or may not be super-deadly (liver, solar plexus) are valid boxing/striking targets as demonstrated and witnessed in boxing fights - they CAN end a fight

2) I doubt having a knife in the hand will reduce the viability of these targets!

3) Caveat regarding #2 - some styles of holding and using the knife would let one deliver massively more impact to a region - in general, reverse grip allows greater transmission of force, but as range decreases, forward-grip edge-up (FGEU) becomes more viable - at the extreme end of the spectrum (being crushed physically against something by another body), FGEU is probably more effective since angle of incidence is going to be improved (more perpendicular) when you are reaching around someone's back out of necessity while being bear-hugged

Be opportunistic! If your fighting style changes massively due to having a small sharp object in your hand, maybe that's an issue. Kidneys are viable before the small sharp object appears, whether it appears or not, and I don't think you want to run a massive Windows Update to your Operating System just because of a small hardware improvement during a fight. Do you? The concept of "shoot to stop" is better expressed until "shoot to stop UNTIL stoppage occurs," and I believe fighting is no different. There's no harm striking a particular region if you don't have the mindset of "wait and see what happens next."
 
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I really appreciate Odd Job 's input , all ways a breath of reality and enlightenment for me!
Conwict is pretty right on as are the mods and others.
I grew up in Italian and Puerto Rican adolescent knife fights in Jersey. I got a Randal 8" #1 from Bo hissef in 1967 after I graduated Benning Jump school.
I used that #1 Randall that garnered me respect from most real men over there in a genuine bayonet to my knife fight that occurred when a 300+ pound Islander mess sarge, drunk out of his mind lunged into the NCO's and Lt. & Company Commander tent who were engaged in a friendly game of poker. The man was seriously getting after the stunned Officers knocking both down and trying to gut them as they wiggled around on the ground trying to avoid the M-14 Bayonet !
We all screamed at the guy with his Japanese first name to zero effect and the first sarge and an e-7 could not stop his lunges. There was no readily available bludgeons in the party hooch and I don't think they could of stopped this amped giant figian.
Not wanting to stab a fellw soldier in the back I drew my Randall and held in a low retracted stance tried to back him off and succeeded in getting a lunge for my efforts! I have fast reactions and pushed the M-14 forearm to the outside with a full power shove and stepped in and severed the forearm tendons of his right armwhich was extended in the lunge.
End of fight, dude sits on floor holding dangling right arm with his left and howls like an animal. I still remember the howling until the medics got him sedated with much morphine!
MP's took my knife , but Company commander gave it back to me not long after. I made a statement to CID officer, the Cook went home with his "war wound" .
Couple years later I did manage two days with Michael Echanis down in LA or San Diego at a dojo he was teaching in, I still have all his books and their elaborate (but effective) moves but learned about 4 good moves from him; 3 from behind!:scrutiny:
 
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OK, I searched "sentry techniques" myself.
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On the topic of strikes (as in Conwict's treatise above), I belong to the school of thought that says don't strike with a closed fist; broken hand bones are a very common result of 'fist fights'. (That's why boxers wear padded gloves.) Instead, I train with open-handed strikes or hammer fists.

Of course, in a last ditch, I guess you do what you need to stop the fight, but I'd rather leave my hand bones intact. If they break while punching while holding a knife, then you cannot hold the knife or punch. (Yes, I understand that fist loading may help, but still ....)

But then I don't have the training that many of you do, so I'm stating this as opinion, and will defer to the experts.

Conwict: thoughts?
 
Impact to kidneys isn't as dependent on the precise targeting of the kidney with a blade. You don't have to consider whether the blow is going to slide past or roll off the kidney.

I think the discussion of fighting with a knife vs. knife fighting is a whole separate topic that keeps getting touched on and it is probably time for a thread just on that. Conwict, want to start that thread since you're the most frequent and vocal person here about the differences?
 
Sure, I will do that as a little fun project soon. I wish there was a way to hide this stuff from Google because it is a bit of an untoward subject. Hmm...

Btw hso, I'm still in agreement with you regarding the impact vs stabbing! I do keep thinking about ways to convey some of these things that broaden others' and my own perspective rather than put people into artifical camps.

Nem Chrome and some other browsers let you highlight text and right click to Google search it - nice easy way to get up to speed.

Regarding closed fist, I think respectable people fall on both sides of that.

Here is an article by someone I respect. His tone may be a bit strident at times but does know what he's talking about. http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/articles/non-firearms-defensive-tools/closed-fist-strike/
 
Sure, I will do that as a little fun project soon. I wish there was a way to hide this stuff from Google because it is a bit of an untoward subject. Hmm...
There is often a perception of evil that seems to attach itself to blade work...which is funny when you consider that it doesn't attach to archery

Btw hso, I'm still in agreement with you regarding the impact vs stabbing! I do keep thinking about ways to convey some of these things that broaden others' and my own perspective rather than put people into artifical camps.
Whenever I think of effective impact the first image that pops into my mind is of the agent in the movie Serenity :p

...the second image is of Bruce Lee's 1" punch, which had nothing to do with hand, arm, shoulder or hip energy/force/speed/strength...how's that for broadening perspective? :neener:
 
Boxing video or real bouts are much better value than fictional representations.
Punching to the kidney is not legal in boxing, but it took place in the old days.
 
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