Derringer idea

Status
Not open for further replies.
K

Kush

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Messages
132
I was reading about the WSP Downsizer pistol, a single shot double action .45 acp derringer, and wondered if it would be possible to make a 4 shot version in .22 lr, I decided to see exactly how big a 4 .22 lr barrels would be, it turns out it would be about .57 inches across (got this from measuring the Mossberg Brownie) which would make it completely possible without making the gun any bigger. Now I'm wondering why someone hasn't done this yet as the gun would be smaller than the NAA .22lr mini revolver (the WSP Downsizer is 3.25 inches long, 2.25 inches tall, and .9 inches wide compared to the 1 1/8 inch barrel mini revolver which is 4 inches long, 2.375 inches tall, and .81 inches thick), would be double action instead of single action, and would have a better grip than the NAA mini revolver. Does anyone here think that this would be a good idea?


Here is a picture of the WSP Downsizer for those who don't know about it.
downsizer%2Bvs%2Bplaying%2Bcard.jpg
 
There was a 4 barreled Sharps pistol (and a replica) chambered for the 22 rinfire. And a larger version cut for the 357 Magnum.

Neither were successful in sales.
 
HJS made the 22 LR Sharps. Went out of business. Iver Johnson has had on their web page for several years the intention of making that gun. I think is just a web fantasy.

I always wanted one for grins but I think the NAAs probably tied up that market. There are a few other 22 mini revolvers out their but the NAA seems predominant.

How about a 32 ACP Sharps. The original older guns came in that caliber. I used to love Yancy Derringer.
 
You can be sure any attempt to make it a four shot pistol would increase the complexity and size. I imagine a manual rotating barrel with a ball detent would be simplest, but to add double action with auto rotating barrel would be a real challenge.

All in all, I think it would be a real loser and much too expensive.
 
On most of the 4 barrel derringers the barrels are stationary and the firing pin rotates 90 degrees as it is cocked (easier to engineer with a rimfire system).
 
Couldn't find any pictures, but American Derringer made the COP in 22 Mag. Here is the 357 version:

cop2.jpg
 
RDF said:
You can be sure any attempt to make it a four shot pistol would increase the complexity and size. I imagine a manual rotating barrel with a ball detent would be simplest, but to add double action with auto rotating barrel would be a real challenge.

All in all, I think it would be a real loser and much too expensive.
Click to expand...

As Carl N. Brown said, you can have the barrels fixed and have a rotating firing pin, it actually doesn't add much complexity over a single barrel (the Sharps derringer mentioned earlier only adds 4 parts, one being a screw, the Mossberg Brownie adds 5, one being a pin and the other a metal clip to keep the rotating firing pin from falling out.)

Numrich Gun Parts page for the Sharps derringer with an exploded view.
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Products.aspx?catid=5343

Exploded view of the Mossberg Brownie I was referring to
mosbrownexviewah3.png
 
The basic problem of the derringer is that when you get into 4 shots in a reasonable caliber, the gun is as big as a 5 or 6 shot revolver or one of the new .380 or 9mm auto pistols. Maybe a derringer fills a nostalgia gap for Western fans, but when I get into J-frame or LCP size, I want one of those guns, not a relic or a copy of one.

Jim
 
That COP derringer 56Hawk posted about came to mind when I read the OP. I always hear about it having a horrible trigger pull (never even seen one in real life), not sure if that was intentional on the part of the designer or if it's basically a side effect of the design having to rotate a firing pin 360 degrees in a very compact gun.
 
We had a C.O.P. come through the shop used a few years ago. I thought about buying it for myself as a curiosity. Trigger pull was atrocious-- couldn't hold the gun on a target.
 
The COP was used on Battlestar Galactica as a space gun!

It's a big honker for what it is worth. The Brits had those big 4 barreled guns also. The Lancasters in 455. They would be cool to own also.
 
The fact that there have been several four barrel derringers on the market and none are being made any more should tell you something.
 
^ That the public who rejected the innovations of the Daisy V/L caseless .22, the Dardick Tround and the GyroJet rocket bullet also failed to appreciate the advantages of the four-barrel derringer?
 
I once had a discussion with Dardick and showed him on paper why his "tround" didn't allow any more cartridges in a given space than round cartridges (actually fewer). He refused to believe it.

The fact is that gun folks tend to be quite conservative in what they will try and buy (and maybe politically, too, but that is another issue). Unless some new development really fills a need and has clear advantages, it won't fly.

On derringers, I never much considered the cocking difficulty until I bought an original Remington double derringer in .41 rimfire. That thing has a mainspring that looks like it came out of a GMC pickup truck. Believe me, when you see some Western hero snap off two quick shots from one, there is some Hollywood magic involved.

Jim
 
Some time back I made up a new mainspring for a guy that had an antique Sharps 4 barrel derringer in .22 short. As part of the reward I got to shoot it a few times. Slick little conversation piece that shot OK but was certainly not in any way a good target shooter. But all the rounds went into a desert plate size group at 10'ish yards.

Fast forward a few months later and a buddy shows up with a Bond Arms Snake Slayer in .45Colt/.410 shot shell. The difference in accuracy caused by a combination in the recoil power and barrel axis offset produced a difference in impact points of more than a foot even at 10'ish yards.

I've since got to shoot a .38Spl derringer that has the same crazy difference in point of impact for the two barrels.

So all in all I would have to say that aside from some specialty .22 guns that the whole multibarrel idea is a bit of a dead loss.

Now IF derringers were regulated as to barrel axis to compensate for this difference in recoil axis lines then maybe they would be good for something more than a belly gun situation. But as it stands they really are more of an oddity than something useful.
 
Can't speak for the 22 Mag version. The COP 357 was a tool of the devil. It was intended to break the shooter's spirit and cause them to drink to excess.
And those were it's good points.
Overpriced and unreliable it offered almost as much firepower as a standard derringer with twice the bulk, more weight and far less concealability.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
^ That the public who rejected the innovations of the Daisy V/L caseless .22, the Dardick Tround and the GyroJet rocket bullet also failed to appreciate the advantages of the four-barrel derringer?
Click to expand...

People didn't really reject innovation in those cases, the Daisy V/L failed because the ATF went after them because it was considered a firearm and Daisy wasn't licensed to make firearms, the Dardick Tround failed due to the guns that fired it being poorly made and the company having poor quality control yet costing as a lot, no one would buy the next great firearm technology if the only company that made it was Rohm and they priced the guns similar to something made by Kimber, and the GyroJet failed due to the company not being able to cut the vents that the gas would exit from on the cartridge accurately which resulted the hot gasses not escaping evenly and a gun that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside.
 
Last edited:
The only reason I could see a 4-barrel derringer being useful over a similarly-sized auto (I think you could get 12 rounds of 9mm easily in there) is for pocket SHOOTING. Revolvers and autos can get locked up in the pocket, I don't see that happening with a derringer.
 
Gee, Kush, are you saying those great ideas, heavily promoted by the gunzines as the wave of the future, weren't quite so good after all? Seems to me I have heard of that before. Can I sell you a 5mm Remington?

Jim
 
I have to jump into this disscusion regarding the 357 COP pistol. I inherted one last year ANIB with box and papers. I have no desire to fire it since it has about a 12 lb trigger pull, is very heavy for it's size and points terribly. It's much too large and heavy for concealment (it's original intention) and as far as I'm concerned it's just a curiousity piece. Can't figure out why anybody would buy one...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

N
  • Locked
22 trail gun
2
Replies
47
Views
4K
billp
B
Unkei
  • Locked
Derringers
2 3
Replies
62
Views
6K
scaatylobo
S
D
  • Locked
Handgun Identification
Replies
8
Views
699
Jim K
J
R
  • Locked
NAA mini vs Baby Browning
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
Jim March
J
J
  • Locked
Good day at the range
Replies
4
Views
470
Stealth01
S
Back
Top