Detroit police station shooting - thoughts on strategy

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I saw a video that showed him walk in, shoot, then walk out, in again:what: he then attacked the desk folks:confused: Died for his effort...Must have been bird shot or else more would have died with 36 gr at 1200 fps imho:uhoh: That is similar to a 22 cal bullet Hmmm

Regards
 
I was wondering what the issue sidearm for Detroit PD was-

http://www.tactical-life.com/online...0-pistols-mp15-tactical-rifles/?right=related
Detroit Police Department Converts to Smith & Wesson M&P40 Pistols & M&P15 Tactical Rifles
SPRINGFIELD, Mass. (April 30, 2009)
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http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...0-pistols--mp15-tactical-rifles-62055317.html is the S&W press release on which most other stories are based.

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Reference Detroit PD's issue ammunition:

This story may be out of date, I didn't see anything newer in a cursory search:
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/4225888/detail.html
Bullets Used By Detroit Police Under Investigation
Expanding Bullets May Not Be Effective, Some Cops Say
POSTED: Wednesday, February 23, 2005
(Expanding Full Metal Jacket)

Apparently there were ... political issues ... regarding the selection of Detroit PD service pistol ammo in the past, leading to the choice of EFMJ. An even older story, archived at TFL:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38043

fwiw,

lpl
 
"So they had a couple things going against them, first no chance of escape without taking some serious fire. Second, no real choices on cover except their desks. Third, no way to forsee this ahead of time, this guy just strolled in and started unloading. "

It has always been difficult for me to express sadness.

so I shall bear my shame on my weapons
 
Lets see now:confused: No LEO died, suspect did:uhoh:

The ammo and gun issued to those at the desk was not the problem, most at the desk, and inside, are what were called, sick, lame and lazy:what: Because they were sometimes put there, injuries, or waiting to retire or :uhoh:
 
Scary Stuff....

This brings back a lot of BAD Memories. I had a buddy of mine shot in a very similar situation. (Danny Vaughn, May 1993, Houston Police) Danny was walking past the front desk in plain clothes when a suspect pulled a .380 and put three into his face at about 10 ft. He survived which is a miracle in and of itself. I spoke with him by email just the other day.

What this video points out is, #1 vests work, wear them, #2 NEVER drop your guard and watch EVERYONE. #3, the fastest draw I have ever seen is to already have it in your hand. If you DO catch someone that makes the hairs on your neck stand up, is get behind something quietly, and fill your hands. If the treat DOES manifest itself, use cover and concealment, and for gods sake do something! ANYTHING but get in the fight. But experience tells us that, you will be called a nut case by other officers, Citizens will complain if they see you, so you don't do it unless it is REALLY WARRANTED.

From the story, this was a very sick and disturbed person, he new he was going down, and he obviously wanted to take someone, cops with him. SO he took the fight to the cops instead of waiting for them at his home.

As a result of the Vaughn shooting, At HPD all of the front desks and public assess areas have some form of ballistic barriers except the main station, and the storefronts. However you cannot drop your guard ever. If you are in uniform, or at work, you are a target.

Training is crucial, you have to plan for the worst case scenario, and in your mind, fight your way through it.

Fortunately, crooks are not the smartest, evil yes, tactically savvy no. Evidently he did not have a plan except to go in and start shooting, this was a very elaborate "Suicide By Cop" Fortunately he got what he wanted without any Detroit officers loosing their lives.

We can discuss equipment, loads, weapons all day long. These are all tools and yes, we want to stack that deck in our favor and carry, deploy the best we can, however when it comes down to it, it is the training and the reaction to the threat that will win the day. The most lethal weapon is the mind.

In the the words of Nathan Bedford Forrest (yes I know he was an idiot on many levels, but he did define doctrine for modern Special Operations) "You have to bring the mostest the fastest"

It's about rapid reaction and rounds on target...

The real problem is complacency, your worried about that report you have to finish, but the phone won't stop ringing, the wife called and....., did we get the tickets to the game this weekend. thinking about everything else except what is going on around you. We used to call it HUA, or head up anatomy. It can get you killed..
 
I'm sounding like a parrot by now, but this is just the result of mindset, training, and preparedness.

1: ALL of the officers were caught off guard. A few of them didn't even know HOW to react when the first shot was fired.

2: All of the officers who did react, did what I equate to trying to buy time and assess the situation. They tried to lay down suppressive fire from cover. Unfortunately, the shooter was already committed, and was already too far inside their OODA loop. This, BTW, is something I see in common with other disastrous shootouts.

Now, I am kind of reluctant to armchair-quarterback this situation, but I do have my own opinions about it. It's not a politically correct choice of words, but it's what the instructors used when I took training on weapons, and it's repeated in a lot of books I've read about the subject. You respond to a deadly threat with OVERWHELMING VIOLENCE.

So, again, the officers that were still in the fight got down behind their desks for cover/concealment from incoming fire, while shooting blindly to buy themselves time to react.

This is just my opinion, mind you, but what I think they should have done was to get up, get their sights on, and put as many holes in the shooter as fast as they could. Empty their magazines into the man, advance on him... hell, even let out a WAR CRY or two, ANYTHING to get their mindset into complete, all-out aggression on this threat. It sometimes appears completely counter-intuitive, but I think, especially in this case, aggression would have been more useful than cover/concealment.
 
Bottom line they won... Granted it was not spectacular but when over they were victorious...

CHP are caught off guard all the time and over the years have paid a huge price in death of officers... Training was pretty bad in the days of Newhall incident...

http://www.chp.ca.gov/memorial/newhall.html

The incident in Detroit...
It does make for a good reminder, be careful out there...

Regards
 
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