Did I get ripped off by my FFL?

[B_Scott]

I am going to talk to him sometime soon.
I will update this thread when it is over and give the name of the FFL then.
Hopefully - they make everything right.

 

[bluecowdawg]

.

as far as i know any letter or package that is sent through the mail or other package service doesnt get opened untill the person you sent it to gets the package and opens it

 

[Trigger]

Can't speak for other FFLs, but I require an FFL from every out of state transfer. Why? because the NYSP who monitor NYS dealers flips out if we don't....they state they'll arest dealers who DON'T require an FFL at the sending end if it is shown that a firearm that was shipped was unlawful in some fashion. It may not make sense, but thats how they treat us.

Wow, thats odd since it's not a federal law. So NYSP are above that and impose their mandates on other states? I thought that was consitiutionally illegal for a state to impose their laws on other states?

I could be wrong.....

 

[RED-DOG 40]

"Concerning your good relationship - You were badly taken advantage of. Time for a divorce."

..Before going for the "divorce", might I suggest contacting Dr. Laura as she may be able to resolve this. That is ( 1-800-DR.LAURA)..... ...I will go now, time for my medication......

........

 

[Steelharp]

Simply put, yeah... you got ripped. It doesn't cost a dime to log a gun in; if you want to get it back out, you have to pay a ten buck background. Shipping is no more than $15 (usually) through the USPS.

Sorry... Mikey D...

 

[DMK]

So NYSP are above that and impose their mandates on other states? I thought that was consitiutionally illegal for a state to impose their laws on other states?

It's called extortion. Fortunately they are doing it by proxy(the local FFL) so they get to screw over two gunnies in one shot. It apparently works out well for them.

If you want to make it very difficult for any guns to be imported into your state, this is one way to do it.

 

[RustyHammer]

Yikes ... B_Scott ... I totally missed that you were in New Orleans. Yes, please post his name (or PM me).

I have a couple guesses who it is, but wouldn't want to post my guess here (in public) and be wrong.

Hope it works out,

Rusty

P.S. I can turn you onto a guy here locally that does FFL transfers for FREE if you are an NRA member.

 

[WhoKnowsWho]

I can turn you onto a guy here locally that does FFL transfers for FREE if you are an NRA member.

That's awesome! And I thought my $20 fee was cheap!

 

[B_Scott]

UPDATE!!
It is policy at:

Elliot's Small Arms
3008 Jefferson Hwy
Jefferson, LA 70121
(504) 833-3199 or (504) 833-3140

to rip off their valued customers.

I called and was told that I was charged $40 (instead of the normal $22) as a handling fee since they didn't make the sale.

I was also charged the $25 for a "transfer" that did not need to take place.
They said it may not be need by law, but it is "the boss's policy".

For those of you that buy from Gunbroker the seller's name is "Donkey 21".

I highly caution anyone that does business with them.

Perhaps others can share their experiences with Elliot's???

 

[RustyHammer]

Yup ... that be them!

I have not done business with them for a long time. They have a bad reputation among many of the local FFL's and LEO's.

I purchased a Ruger pistol from two or three years ago. It was broken out of the box. They kept telling me that they had returned it to Ruger for warranty repair. Okay, but after several months of no gun, I called Ruger. Ruger had no record of it (serial number check) being return for repair. David (of Elliot's) tried to tell me they had "no record of it" ever having been returned. ( Fortunately, I had receipts, E-mails, repair ticket, and signatures to PROVE they had it.)

Anyway, after long fight, my credit card company credited it back to my account and Elliot's was left with the pistol.

I also purchased a Taurus .22 '94 pistol that I "special ordered" through them. It was used when I got it ... even though they swore it wasn't. Taurus said that they had a record that it had been returned TWICE to them for warranty work BEFORE I bought it as NEW. It had undoubtedly not new, as they had said.

I'll NEVER step foot in the place again -- which has cost them THOUSANDS of dollars in business over the years.

If anyone has any questions about them, PM me.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Several have mentioned shipping via USPS. USPS will accept shotguns and long guns, but handguns are specifically excluded. From the ATF web site

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

Also, you may ship directly to an out of state FFL. There is no need for you to process the outgoing shipment through an FFL. From the ATF web site

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

For a complete list of ATF regs in FAQ format go here.

Of course these are the fed regs. Your state regs may require more. Check with your state Attorney General to be sure.

Brad

 

[spacemanspiff]

i ordered my Kimber tle from Elliot Smallarms. found them through gunbroker, called their shop and sent them my money with my FFL's paperwork.

i had no problems at all with them.

i paid $699 for the kimber, paid $25 for shipping to Alaska, and the pawnshop i use for transfers charges $10 for a copy of the FFL.

i paid well less for that tle than i would have if i bought it locally, even after shipping and transfers.

maybe Elliot Smallarms changed their business practices after i bought from them?

 

[Sydwaiz]

For those of you that buy from Gunbroker the seller's name is "Donkey 21".

I could think of another name besides "Donkey"!

 

[bamf]

B_Scott,

Thanks for the info...and I'll pass the word along...no business with Elliot's Small Arms ever.

Scum like this give gun people a bad name and should be put out of business.

 

[Obiwan]

The idea that "everyone does it" in a geographical area is quite probably BS.

I had two guys that lived within 30 miles of each other and one told me that ALL the FFL's required FFL to FFL shipping....

The other guy's FFL had no problem receiving it

Shop around

 

[moredes]

But I have had more than one deal where the receiving FFL absolutley refused to RECEIVE a weapon from a private party...

New York isn't the only state where the FFL has been buffalo'ed. I was a resident of CA, and am now a resident in Mississippi. Though this practice isn't federal law, there are at least 2 dealers in CA and 2 in MS that require a sender's FFL. One CA FFL used to take in transfers directly from a private party, but that practice changed in 2003 because of a change in CA gun laws (or so he said). They all said pretty much the same thing--they don't wanna go through the hassle of dealing with the BATF, so their bound books always show a FFL from the sending party, law or not. As others have said, there are FFL's who'll accept directly from a private party, though. A lot will depend on how far you're willing to drive.

$25 for a transfer fee and $40 shipping is pretty standard-- both in my personal experience, and from the feedback of the majority of the sellers I've dealt with. The sellers were in MI, NC, TX, GA, CO, and FL, and yes, my FFL has told me if the seller went through an FFL on his end. That's the only way I knew the claim of an 'extra' expense by the seller was legit (not that I ever doubted them).

It may be a rip, but if my purchases and sales are any indication, there are more dealers out there who're requiring a sender FFL than not. Why UPS instead of USPS? Because UPS will come to them; no one wants to deal with the post office. If you've found an FFL who's willing to ship by USPS, kiss him and remember him at Christmas.

 

[Wayne D]

Slide can be shipped normal. Receiver on a handgun still has to go iver night to my understanding.

That's right and it's because the receiver is considered the firearm and the slide, barrel, etc. are parts.

 

[RGO]

Thanks for the news, guys. I'll be sure to stay away.

 

[Phillip A Swihart (Phils Guns)]

The rules for gun transfers are: Out of state between FFL'S only, the fee is usually $15/25 to cover the 4473 paperwork. The dealer does not transfer the gun to his name or business, if he did he owns it not you, if you have no sales slip with the serial number you have no proof it belonged to you.

Freight varies with UPS based on size and weight, but they require overnight on handguns, normal cost is up to $25.

USPS will take a pistol for as low as $8/10, again overnight priority only.

You may send any gun to a repair facility without a FFL , but call or write first for authorization. This covers an authorized repair facility only.

 

[Cacique500]

The rules for gun transfers are: Out of state between FFL'S only, the fee is usually $15/25 to cover the 4473 paperwork.

Phil, please read the above ATF regs. A non licensee *may* ship to a licensee in *any* state. It's in black & white, directly from the BATF, and not really open for interpretation.

As for the transfer part, the FFL on the receiving in still has to log the pistol into his books.

I have purchased, shipped, and sold many pistols this way.

 

[SloopG]

I'm looking into buying a gun through the internet and starting researching local FFLs. The cheapest so far is $50 plus $25 for California paperwork and the most expensive so far wanted 10% of the firearm purchase price + sales tax.

 

[bamf]

SloopG,

We I don't know what part of the Bay Area you are from but if you're up in the North Bay it may be worth it...I found a great FFL up in Sacramento, cost is $50 total. He's a really cool guy and willing to get you great deals on other stuff, ammo and knives etc. he'll order it wholesale, charge a small mark up and thats it. Much better than retail.

If you want more info, PM me.

..
Phil, you sound like a dealer, you tell your customers this BS as well...

 

[Rocko]

Several have mentioned shipping via USPS. USPS will accept shotguns and long guns, but handguns are specifically excluded. From the ATF web site

If you look closer at the question in the FAQ, it is specific to a non-licensee. A licensee can ship a handgun to a licensee via USPS. Since the original poster took it to his dealer to ship, it would have been possible. He couldn't have legally mailed it via USPS himself, however.

Rocko

 

[Matthew Courtney]

One is not being "ripped off" or "screwed over" if one service provider has higher rates or policies to conduct business in a different manner than other service providers. If you know the cost up front and the FFL holder provides the promised service, what is the issue? If the issue is simply price, quit complaining and shop around.

Some business models seek to do a whole bunch of low margin transactions while others seek to do transactions with higher margins. Welcome to America, a relatively free country since 1932.

 

[The Reverend]

Thank You Matthew...

for the civics lesson and informing us of the freedoms that we can excercise. You are absolutely correct that businesses can charge whatever they want to obtain the profit margin they desire.

That however is not the apparent issue. The issue is that said service providers have some shady practices that tend to mislead folks. In this case, telling clients that shipping handguns must be done through FFLs only. BATF rules state very clearly that anyone can ship a firearm through Fed-Ex or UPS using their perscribed courier services to a RECEIVING FFL.

Any FFL that tells folks otherwise is either ignorant or is deliberately being dishonest. That, at least loosly, is being "ripped off". especially when said FFL charges thess folks for the service.

That said, I hope that clarifies the disscussion.

God Bless