Did my .30-30 let me down???

[AKElroy]

Or was I an idiot for taking this shot? I was in an open tower stand 220 yrds from a little cull spike. It was walking a trail & never took a pause; At a turn in the trail he quartered away, still slowly walking & I took the shot. I was shooting down at a fairly steep angle, so I did not hold over. This load should be hitting roughly 3" low @ 200 with my 1.5" high sight-in @ 100. I honestly do not know if I missed him high or low. Since he was walking, I placed the shot at the leading edge of his chest for a miniscule amount of lead.

My son & I spent the next two hours looking for blood, and eventually found a fresh bullet hole in a cactus with zero blood anywhere around the hit. Clean miss. I was thankful to not have maimed & lost the animal. The shot was clearly beyond either me or the rig or both.

I have a lot of confidence in this rig, a recent manufacture model 94AE w/ a dead-nuts 45 year old Weaver K-4 mounted in Weaver top mounts. It is low to the bore & this rig shoots 1.5" high, 2MOA groups regularly @ 100 yrds.

I was shooting 150 gr. core-locks. I am not good at guessing angles; there was probably 40 feet of drop between me and the deer over the 220 yard distance. Did I need to aim low with that drop?? The distance is pretty accurate because I lasered several tree trunks ouround this feeder from the tower to get a feel for potential shots.

 

[Flintknapper]

I'm going to say you likely shot under the animal.

With the 150 gr. Remy...you would need to be sighted in approximately 4" high @ 100yds to be "dead on" at 200.

The range was even greater than that. Then take into consideration that you are shooting a rifle that gives 2 MOA at 100yds. so extrapilated...that means 4" at 200 yds.

If your rest was not "rock steady" and you were aiming about 1/2 way up/down the deer, its easy to see how you could miss.

The concern about "angle" (and holding low) wouldn't really apply until it was 50 degrees or greater.

I am surprised you didn't clip a leg....since the deer was quartering away.

I won't judge whether or not you should have attempted the shot....because I don't know your level of competence with that rifle and load.

I will say that it was probably "stretching" the limits, all things considered.

Wishing you better luck on your next hunt Sir!

Flint.

 

[bswiv]

I'm no expert, especially as I hunt Florida where 2 feet is a hill, but I think you still need to hold over..............

Someone will likely post the physics of it..................

Besides that 2 inch groups at 100 are 4+ at over 200 yards. Quartering away that added to a little bit of user imperfection and you get a clean miss.....maybe.

 

[AKElroy]

I am surprised you didn't clip a leg....since the deer was quartering away.

That was my biggest concern; it is possible. If so, it did not bleed. we went back later in the day to look again just to be sure. I never saw him run, walk, limp or jump after the shot once I got the crosshairs back on target; he was just gone.

I carried a .270 into the stand for the afternoon hunt; with the weather changing we did not see an animal.

 

[The Bushmaster]

It does not matter whether you are shooting up hill or down hill. Aim as if you are on flat ground the same as when you sighted it in. Gravity effects the bullet equally up or down hill. Ya missed. 220 yards is a bit long for a .30-30 anyway.

If you are going to shoot deer at 200 yards then you need to sight in that particular rifle at 200 yards. The .30-30 is notorious for its drop over long distances. I would, also, use 170 grain (preferably Remington Cor-lokt) bullets. They stay aloft longer and hit harder...

 

[kyle1974]

There most certainly is a difference when shooting at angles other than perpendicular to "flat" ground level. This effect occurs with any angle when shooting uphill or downhill... it doesn't start at some random measurement of angle. Gravity effects projectiles over a horizontal distance, so when calculating drop, you take the horizontal component of the distance, not the diagonal.

at 200 yards with shallow angles, it's not worth enough of a difference to matter with most rifles though

If you were shooting at 30 degrees, that 220 yard distance would be equal to 196... so not much of a difference that would effect the bullet drop over the original value of 220.


Say however, you're shooting something downhill at a 45 degree angle that laser ranges 300 yards away, you only take the horizontal component of 300 yards, which would be about 228 yards. With a 30-30, this would be a substantial difference in drop.

as far as the shot.... who knows what happened. Maybe you just missed

EDIT.... saw your 40 foot drop over 220 yards.... no, that's not enough difference to matter...that's less than 5 degrees.


to calculate, you take the cosine of the angle, then multiply that factor by the yardage

cos(30 degrees) * measured distance = horizontal distance.

 

[schlockinz]

You can complicate the matters of measuring drop because your bullet is losing momentum in the plane that it travels in and isn't traveling as fast in the field of the gravity, but I'm not sure how you'd figure that in with field conditions...

 

[kyle1974]

closer to sea level you are, the more dense the air is, and the more drag your bullet has due to the more dense air.... so a bullet will drop faster at sea level than it will in the mountains.

barometric pressure is also a factor...

shooting a 30/30 at 200 yards though... I think it was just a miss.

 

[LEVRLOVR]

I think you just made a clean miss is all.

A ranged 218 yards.

 

[Flintknapper]

Conventional wisdom on the subject of "angles" (as relates to trajectory) is pretty well summed up here:

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/5th/33.cfm


Please note the charts and examples.

Kyle1974 is correct when he states that the effects of gravity (off horizontal) can be applied at ALL angles and that they do not "start" at some prescribed distance.

I hope my reply was not misunderstood as such. My point was that at the distance involved in this incident the effects are negligible unless very steep angles were involved (50 degrees or better).

Anything less...and the amount to "hold under" is so small, that most folks literally couldn't "shoot the difference"....even if they were on a bench rest.

In short, if you are shooting any modern cartridge with a muzzle velocity of 2000-2800 fps and you are shooting at ranges of 200 yds. or less.... and at angles less than 45 degrees (uphill or downhill) FORGET about adjusting for trajectory.

As angles and distance increase....yes...it becomes a factor. Just read up on it....so you'll know.

Happy hunting and good luck,

Flint.

 

[The Bushmaster]

My favorite hunting rifle is my 60 year old Winchester 94 in .30 WCF. I have hunted with it sense I was 18 (I'm 67 now). Most of my hunting has been in the Cascades of Washington and Oregon. I have not seen any difference in POI from the sighting in POI. There is no "level" ground in those mountains...Nor is there any level ground in the Ozarks...

Flintknapper's chart shows that the amount of effect on the bullet is next to non-existant that it is not a thing to even consider unless you are a long range target shooter.

But you believe what you want...

 

[kyle1974]

flint..

I agree. Like I said, it's happening starting from 1 degree, but it doesn't really matter at the ranges most people shoot deer at. ... unless you're shooting 500+ yards, or shooting very high angles, it's not much of a factor to consider.

I'm starting to get into the fine tuning of long range shooting, and looking at all these factors is almost as interesting as taking the shot itself.

Bushmaster, it all depends on your definition of "long range". even at 300 yards, there are substantial differences. that 7mm mag shows an almost 6" difference at 45 degrees and 300 yard distance.

 

[Flintknapper]

For a real "eye opener", study up on "wind drift" for 15+ mph cross winds.

At longer distances 300-500yds. it can become quite a factor when using lighter bullets.

Just something else to consider.

 

[Arkel23]

I always heard anything over 150 yards wasn't for a 30-30, I only have target shooting experience with a 30-30.

 

[schlockinz]

I wouldn't buy that, you're limited by energy and accuracy, some people can shoot a 30-30 accurately out much farther than 150yds, and it has the energy to kill deer sized game well past 150yds.

Same logic applies to the 45-70, most consider it a 100yd gun, but it can easily kill past that if you can shoot it accurately at the long ranges and deal with the rainbow trajectory.

 

[kyle1974]

yeah.. the wind is the real PITA...

doping wind is by far the most difficult aspect.

 

[Art Eatman]

Uphill/downhill for an angle of 30 degrees or less? Forget it. Don't even think about holdover or holdunder. Just point it and pull. The cosine of 30 degrees is 0.866, so a a 200-yard shot would be 173 yards for the trajectory. Not enough difference in that 27 yards to care about.

The real limit on most iron-sights .30-30s is the relatively coarse sights which make aiming rather difficult. Short sight radius, buckhorn sights: A real limiting factor.

Wind? Unless it's really blowing, anything inside of 200 yards isn't a real problem. A couple of inches usually won't make that much difference for a horizontal shift.

For a .30-30 hitting a couple of inches high at 100 yards, I'd guess probably three-ish inches low at 200. At least a couple of inches low, anyhow...

 

[Kernel]

The OP's .30-30, if it was 1.5" high at 100 yds, would be about 4.5" low at 200. A 10 mph wind would cause it to drift 9" at 200 yds.

 

[dakotasin]

i did quite a bit of work w/ my 30-30 when i was developing loads, and extracting performance, including setting my chronograph up at the 200 yard line and shooting over it (w/ the peep sight). i found my stiff handloads (significantly hotter than factory loads) only carried about 950 foot-pounds of energy at 200 yards (sorry no exact numbers, notes aren't handy). there are some who claim 1,000 foot-pounds is the threshold for clean kills on deer. i'm also aware of some deer that have been killed at 200 yards w/ the 30-30. i'm not saying either way because i haven't tried shooting a deer at 200 yards w/ a 30-30, i'm just putting the information out there.

clean miss low on your deer, btw. actual velocity of factory 30-30 loads is lower than advertised by the manufacturers i chronographed (win, federal, rem), therefore having more drop than you thought.

also, do not forget to check out your scope as a possible culprit. those weavers were good scopes, but not infallible...

 

[islandphish]

You missed. You even said you didn't aim AT the deer you aimed in front of it.

At 235 yards just put it on the animal and shoot.

Pull out a ruler and look at how big 3 inches is. now compare that to the area you are aiming at a deer. it don't make a bit of difference.

I think that mediocre shooters often screw up because they overthink the shots. I would not lead a barely walking animal that is quartering away at 235.

 

[Flintknapper]

I believe it was a clean miss (low)….though AK was fortunate it did not take out a front leg.

There is probably no single reason accounting for the miss. Rather…. the totality of the circumstance makes it analogous to “stacked tolerances” in the manufacturing world.

As previously stated….you can expect to have about 3” drop at 200 yds. if the rifle is sighted in 1.5” high at 100.

Then add in the 4 MOA capability of the rifle (under ideal circumstances at 200 yds).

A less than “rock solid” rest (in most tower blinds) could easily contribute another 2-3” of movement (at 220 yds.). With a 4 power scope it can be difficult to tell how much you are moving at that distance.

All things considered, I can easily see how the bullet path could be 10” off the intended point of aim.

If the traditional aiming point (heart lung area…tight behind the shoulder…1/3-1/2 way up from belly) was used, then 10” will put you completely off of most Texas Whitetail (especially Hill Country deer).

I think this is a great thread…as it gives all of us “food for thought” when considering our rifles, ammo and distance.

I applaud AKElroy for bringing it up.

Flint.

 

[buck460XVR]

Did my .30-30 let me down???
Or was I an idiot for taking this shot?

IMHO....neither. You took a shot you honestly thought you could make and had a clean miss. Can a 30-30 take a deer cleanly at that range? Sure it can. Can a shooter proficient with a scoped gun that he knows is sighted in make this shot? Sure....most of the time. But hunters occasionally miss.....goes with the territory. Oh yeah, I am quite aware there are many on this forum that never miss, that have never wounded a deer in 90 years of hunting and never take a shot unless the deer is standing still and broadside. But for those of us that don't walk on water, this ain't the case. Sometimes when we as hunters fail, whether with a shot or coming home empty handed, we want a reason other than our own short comings. As others have said........the angle wasn't a factor. Could have been the wind, could have been the holdover, could have been the lead.....could have been the cactus jumped out and deflected the bullet. Could be it was just the deer's lucky day.

 

[kyle1974]

I'm just glad whitetail deer have not recieved the memo about the 1,000 ft/lb minimum to make a kill on one of them.

 

[AKElroy]

You missed. You even said you didn't aim AT the deer you aimed in front of it.

I aimed on the animal; just at the very leading edge of his chest. He was walking, so I figured that should have been a shoulder hit at least. I would not have risked a gut shot on walking game by aiming any farther back. I have missed plenty in my life, but this shot felt really good. I agree the tower stand was an issue, it does move around a bit. It does have a rail to be used as a rest, and I generally put my weight on one side to make it steady for the shot.

I normally use a .270 in that stand, but lately all of the game has been much closer in & I really like the .30-30. Wouldn't you know it, the only time I see a potential for harvest, It is far enough out that I was really wishing for that .270.

 

[smokey262]

By my calculations the Remington 150gr 30-30 bullets drops more than 7" at 220 yards when 1.5" high at 100 yards.

You shot under the deer

I would keep using the rifle, but change to a slightly higher POI at 100 yards, say 3" to 3.25"

Then I would practice out to 220 yards