Did you ever wonder...

[RealGun]

what a 44 Special would do in a 45 Colt. Oops!

This was fired accidentally in a 45 Blackhawk.

 

[badkarmamib]

Yeah, but what was the accuracy like?

 

[ATLDave]

So what's the story on why the bulge only goes halfway down?

 

[CraigC]

Surprised it didn't split. A .44Mag will usually split when fired in a .45Colt.

 

[RealGun]

So what's the story on why the bulge only goes halfway down?

I think it tells us where the pressure was enough to fire form the case to the larger chamber.

 

[RealGun]

I should note that the case was not discolored, as the picture would suggest. The darkness I now realize is my reflection taking the picture. The case is completely shiny.

 

[ATLDave]

I think it tells us where the pressure was enough to fire form the case to the larger chamber.

I suppose that's necessarily true, but then the question becomes: is that because the pressure was higher above the line, or because the brass below the ring was stronger?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

While the mess up of shooting the .44 Special in a 45 Colt is not good it could have been worse. It could have been a full power .44 Magnum.

 

[bullseye308]

That's gonna take a lot of lube to resize.




Glad you are ok.

 

[Milt1]

Damn, that's interesting! I understand that it was fire formed to the larger chamber but why only halfway? Did the pressure subside halfway?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

So what's the story on why the bulge only goes halfway down?

Damn, that's interesting! I understand that it was fire formed to the larger chamber but why only halfway? Did the pressure subside halfway?

Howdy

It is because the brass is thinner towards the case mouth than near the base.

In the center of this photo is a 44-40 that I fired out of a 45 Colt revolver. On the left is a standard 45 Colt case and on the right is a standard 44-40 case. The 44-40 fired in the oversized chamber bulged where it did because that is where the brass is the thinnest.

No, this was not an accident, I did it on purpose. I wanted to see what would happen, so at the end of a CAS match I fired five 44-40 rounds out of one of my 45 Colt Single Action Army revolvers. Accuracy was not as bad as one might expect, despite claims that the bullet would 'rattle down the barrel'. I hit the target with all five rounds. No, I was not afraid of the gun blowing up, these were Black Powder rounds and I knew the pressure would be no greater with the 44-40s than with a 45 Colt.

 

[RealGun]

While the mess up of shooting the .44 Special in a 45 Colt is not good it could have been worse. It could have been a full power .44 Magnum.

That's a fact. This actually happened because I carry a box of jacketed reloads for a couple rounds to chase lead at the end of a shooting session. There are two rows of each cartridge, one box for large and one for small, sub .400. I just picked from the wrong row of the big bore box, and the 44 Mag was two more rows down. I try to keep a shorter cartridge in between the longer ones, but I don't know what happened for sure. In any case, this was a 45 Blackhawk, so how bad could it have been? The chaser rounds are all mild reloads.

 

[RealGun]

I suppose that's necessarily true, but then the question becomes: is that because the pressure was higher above the line, or because the brass below the ring was stronger?

I am skeptical about the transition to stronger brass being so abrupt. What I do get is the notion of peak pressure moving forward.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I am skeptical about the transition to stronger brass being so abrupt. What I do get is the notion of peak pressure moving forward.

Pressure doesn't move forward. Gasses exert pressure in all directions, so regardless of when the pressure peak occurs, it is the same throughout the barrel, from the head of the case to the base of the bullet.

 

[ATLDave]

Conjecture: The expanded section of the brass corresponds to where the bullet was seated. When the pressure rose upon ignition, it began pushing the bullet forward and the brass sideways. Without a snug steel chamber, the brass was able to move sideways fast and far enough to allow a lot of gas to escape around the bullet. Once that "path" was open, that was the path of least resistance, and most of the gasses went thataway. The brass that had to be shoved aside was pushed further, while the brass at the rear of the case had the pressure on it relieved.

Plausible, or crazy?

 

[RealGun]

Pressure doesn't move forward. Gasses exert pressure in all directions, so regardless of when the pressure peak occurs, it is the same throughout the barrel, from the head of the case to the base of the bullet.

I like ATLDave's theory.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Good Grief!

Hasn't anybody ever sectioned a cartridge case?

The brass tapers from the thickest down near the case head to the thinnest up by the case mouth.

That's why the case expanded about halfway up its length.

Take a look at my 44-40 round that was fired in a 45 Colt chamber.

Same story.

Here are a couple of pieces of 45 Colt brass I sectioned a couple of years ago to illustrate the difference between a Balloon Head case on the left and a modern solid head case on the right. You can see how the cartridge wall thins as it gets nearer to the mouth.

This is because of the way cartridge brass is formed. It is not a cutting process as done on a lathe, cartridge brass is deep drawn. And deep drawing usually results in more material down near the base than at the top.

No different with a 44-40 or 44 Special.

 

[ATLDave]

"Tapers".

That's not a taper, that's a pretty sharp step. Some brass is stepped on the inside, but not most.

 

[CraigC]

I thought it would've been very obvious that the web at the case head was the reason for the way the case expanded.

 

[RealGun]

I thought it would've been very obvious that the web at the case head was the reason for the way the case expanded.

"I thought it would have been very obvious"... that the expansion was too abrupt to attribute the resulting shape entirely to the case thickness taper.

Seems to me that the pressure found the weak point and just pushed around the bullet. It suddenly makes the shape of the 44-40 very interesting.

 

[Drail]

I have seen this happen too many times at several ranges and the cause was always people laying out all their gear on the line and mixing up ammo from multiple open boxes. All you have to do is adopt the rule - one gun - one box of ammo. When you are done shooting that gun, put it AND the ammo away. It's just too easy to make a mistake when you get in a hurry or when someone else who is inexperienced is loading guns with no supervision. One gun - one box of ammo. Also - shooting a jacketed round to get lead out of the barrel merely irons it onto the bore real good to where a Lewis lead remover can't even get it all off. If the lead is heavy enough pressures will spike when the jacketed rounds tries to push through it. It is a very common but very bad habit. Shoot your jacketed rounds first and then shoot your lead loads and then take it home and clean the lead out with a lead removal tool like the Lewis or a copper Chore Boy patch wrapped around an old brush. Don't try to shoot it out.

 

[RealGun]

I have seen this happen too many times at several ranges and the cause was always people laying out all their gear on the line and mixing up ammo from multiple open boxes. All you have to do is adopt the rule - one gun - one box of ammo. When you are done shooting that gun, put it AND the ammo away. It's just too easy to make a mistake when you get in a hurry or when someone else who is inexperienced is loading guns with no supervision. One gun - one box of ammo. Also - shooting a jacketed round to get lead out of the barrel merely irons it onto the bore real good to where a Lewis lead remover can't even get it all off. If the lead is heavy enough pressures will spike when the jacketed rounds tries to push through it. It is a very common but very bad habit. Shoot your jacketed rounds first and then shoot your lead loads and then take it home and clean the lead out with a lead removal tool like the Lewis or a copper Chore Boy patch wrapped around an old brush. Don't try to shoot it out.

I think the notion of "ironing lead into the bore" is ridiculous. The extent of hand wringing on gun forums has no bounds. I use mild chaser rounds (jacketed) on the advice of my gunsmith and well known custom gun maker, who also strongly advises against cleaning the bore of an actively used gun...ever, inserting nothing into the barrel, not even a cotton patch, over concern for dulling the rifling and prematurely "wearing out" the barrel, cleaning it to death. It's fine. We don't cut paper with our best barber shears, and this is no different. It's a sharp edge.

I never have more than one box of ammo open at a time on the firing line, so don't relate to the sermon about that. The problem was that the box of large bore chasers had more than one cartridge available. I believe I will only need this one lesson to avoid this mishap in the future.

 

[CraigC]

I wouldn't dismiss it and know a guy that egged the bore on a Freedom Arms. Confirmed by Bob Baker. Combine enough pressure with enough stupidity and strange things are possible.

 

[BobWright]

I think the notion of "ironing lead into the bore" is ridiculous. The extent of hand wringing on gun forums has no bounds. I use mild chaser rounds (jacketed) on the advice of my gunsmith and well known custom gun maker, who also strongly advises against cleaning the bore of an actively used gun...ever, inserting nothing into the barrel, not even a cotton patch, over concern for dulling the rifling and prematurely "wearing out" the barrel, cleaning it to death. It's fine. We don't cut paper with our best barber shears, and this is no different. It's a sharp edge.
.

I don't buy that. I've routinely cleaned my guns after each range session.



I have used stainless steel bore brushes ever since they became available, using Hoppe's No. 9 solvent and flannel cleaning patches. There is no evidence of loss of accuracy, and this gun dates back to 1987 or so, and as shown just passed the 20,000 round mileage marker.

The rifling does not need a sharp corner, as evidenced by Marlin's Micro-Groove rifling, and hexagonal bores on some guns. The oversized bullet will swage up to fit the rifling. And I've never detected any skidding of my bullets.


Bob Wright

 

[RealGun]

I don't buy that. I've routinely cleaned my guns after each range session.
<snip>
I have used stainless steel bore brushes ever since they became available, using Hoppe's No. 9 solvent and flannel cleaning patches. There is no evidence of loss of accuracy, and this gun dates back to 1987 or so, and as shown just passed the 20,000 round mileage marker.

The rifling does not need a sharp corner, as evidenced by Marlin's Micro-Groove rifling, and hexagonal bores on some guns. The oversized bullet will swage up to fit the rifling. And I've never detected any skidding of my bullets.

Bob Wright

Commented to me was that barrels lose their accuracy at around 50k rounds.

Bores without cut rifling are notorious for leading, most notably Glock barrels, which are routinely replaced with after market barrels. My Smith 625JM leaded badly with its ECM rifling, even after throat and forcing cone work, so I bought the 625PC, which had cut rifling for good reason, no doubt influenced by Jerry Miculek's use of that gun and his interest in casting his own bullets or simply using less expensive lead. My 625PC was a problem too but improved by recutting the forcing cone on axis.

Some guns have very shallow rifling, which can be more quickly worn out. I bought a Ruger Service SIx 38 Special, which Ruger chose to scrap in exchange for a special price on something else. The barrel was shot out (or cleaned to death). I have another one I bought appearing unfired, and it has shallow rifling too. There appears little margin for wear and tear. I guess service revolvers were not expected to be fired that much.

My Kahr guns have hex rifling, and the manuals clearly say NOT to fire lead bullets in them.