Difference between 9mm and 45 ACP "irrelevant"!

[dairycreek]

I was recently perusing an article in a gun mag in which the author is touting a couple of 9mm pistols and the 9mm caliber in general. In the article he makes the following statement, --and with modern ammunition the difference in "stopping power" between the 9mm and .45 is irrelevent. In your collective experience what 9mm ammo might support his statement? Or, is it just another gun mag hype? Do your darndest! Good shooting

 

[El Tejon]

It's just a pistol cartridge.

 

[gudel]

9mm... 45acp... makes no different if it hits the head and clutter up the brain.

 

[garrettwc]

I agree with El Tejon, they are both pistol cartridges, and as such underpowered.

But to answer you question -

Winchester's Ranger (AKA Black Talon) line is pretty good.

Others are the Corbon, Speer Gold Dot, Reminton Golden Saber and the like.

Check out the data at The Ammo Lab for some thorough independent tests.

 

[R127]

What?!

That writer is sorely mistaken, to say the least! Everyone knows that the proton-tipped .45 caliber atomic death torpedos fired from an advanced delivery system costing US $1,000.00 or more, such as a tactical custom 1911 clone with flush fitting 8 round silo, is the only known weapon capable of dammaging/destroying any adult human being with a body mass over 95lbs.

This writer clearly has no street experience. He would do well to follow the lead of the world's elite tactical operators. He might even consider taking a few weekend classes to fine tune his flabby battle skills.

 

[MacPelto]

I don't know about 'irrelevant', but it seems to me that a good many very knowledgeable individuals have always considered .45 ball to be an adequate cartridge. These same people still consider 9mm underpowered, even though modern 9mm HP rounds penetrate as deep, if not deeper than .45 ball, and expand reliably to diameters greater than .45 ball.

I can't seem to see the logic. I'm not saying that modern .45's aren't better than 9mm, only that modern 9mm HP is at least equal to .45 Ball. Am I missing something?

 

[HadEmAll]

"That writer is sorely mistaken, to say the least! Everyone knows that the proton-tipped .45 caliber atomic death torpedos fired from an advanced delivery system costing US $1,000.00 or more, such as a tactical custom 1911 clone with flush fitting 8 round silo, is the only known weapon capable of dammaging/destroying any adult human being with a body mass over 95lbs"

That was excellent!

 

[Sean Smith]

I think the difference is irrelevant, but that's because I own a 10mm.

In your collective experience what 9mm ammo might support his statement?

Winchester Ranger-T 127gr +P+.

 

[TheMariner]

illrelevant compared to one another.... nah... there are differences between the two; each offers a different ballistics profile.

illrelevant compared to rifle cartridge, such as my .308? Yeah, no duh. Open irons, I could drop a man at 150 yards. But a 50yard shot is a difficult to make with a pistol under stress.

It is a matter of relativity.

 

[Fed168]

As long as the round is put where it needs to be, kinda makes it a moot point. Both have their (dis)advantages- both rounds work well on folks. Any of the well constructed bullet designs should work- it's up to the shooter to put them in the right place.

 

[surfinUSA]

I thought 9mm vs. 45 was Mondays repetitive argument?

 

[tbeb]

9mm ammo like the Federal and Winchester and Remington 115 gr. JHP +P+. This stuff has a velocity of about 1300 feet per second from a 4" barrel.

I simply prefer the .45 ACP myself. Got tired of the age old debate of what caliber is better. .45 was never doubted. I would feel just as well armed with a 9mm loaded with the ammo I've mentioned.

 

[Gerald McDonald]

If someone were shooting at me it would be irrelevent if it were a 22, I aint hanging around while somebody shoots regardless of what caliber. 22 or 44mag makes me no diff
Gerald

 

[HKcenterMass]

...but if modern ammo has advanced, to make the 9mm=to the .45, no doubt the .45 has advanced as well, so the 9mm is now = to the .45 of old, but not the modern .45...so the 45 still wins .

 

[Angelo]

Honestly, I wouldn't stand in front of either one of them. Both are fun to use and both have great platforms from which to use them.

Just my 2¢

Angelo

 

[KPersimmon]

Like I've said previously, I personally don't like the 9mm since I experienced a very scary ricochet some years ago (using 115-grain ball-type ammo.) I could be wrong, by my conclusion was (and remains) that the bullet is too fast and too light. Whatever the reason, I don't care for bullets that come back at me!

 

[triggertime]

He should have said that the difference in "stopping power" between the 9mm and .45 is relative not irrelevant.

 

[ACP]

There's a link to a thread here under strategy and tactics outlining a gunfight at a California range.

To paraphrase the author, the stickup man was armed with a (rented) Colt 9mm AR-15. He was hoping if he was shot by the Remington ball ammo the perp was loaded with, the bullet would pass clean through and he could get off a couple of rounds from his .45 ACP Glock.

The author later shot the perp twice -- once in the chest, above the nipple (guy lost about half his lung) and in the wrist. Bullet travelled up the foreram and exited near the elbow.

I am paraphrasing here -- the author was using a 230-gr. JHP. The bullets didn't expand from his short barrelled Glock. The perp still had to be shocked back to life twice in the ambulance on the way to the trauma center. He survived thanks to immediate medical attention. The author later switched to a 185-gr. +P for his short-barreled .45.

What I gleaned from his tale is a) he didn't expect to die immediately from 9mm ball (albeit not by a shot to the head) and b) his well-regarded .45 ACP round didn't perform as expcted from his short barrel.

But, bullet performance being an "iffy" thing, if you can't count on a .355 caliber round expanding, and you can't count on a .45 caliber round expanding, wouldn't you rather use a .45 caliber round for self-defense?

You know the phrase -- "a 9mm might expand, but a .45 will never shrink."

YMMV.

FYI, I carry a S&W 642 and a Colt Combat Commander.

 

[buzz_knox]

If you get a modern expanding round with adequate weight, energy, and penetration, then the differences in bore size are less important than the ability to put multiple rounds on target rapidly.

All things being equal, bigger is better, but if you shoot a 9mm better and more accurately than a .45, that's the better caliber for you. I've seen too many people claim that the a larger caliber is better, but are slowed down by recovery time between shots for the bigger round to truly be effective.

 

[Bainx]

!"tnavelerri" PCA 54 dna mm9 neewteb ecnereffiD

Whadda ya know, when you play is backwards it states "I buried Paul".

 

[KPersimmon]

<<<One note. My medical source did indicate that calibers .38 and below did often fail to penetrate the skull. Something to think about when someone suggests trying for a head shot with your Detective Special.>>>

Good points! Same conclusion that I had reached some time back about the .38 Spl.

Case in point: I recently took a 911 call from a lady who had attempted a suicide with a .38 Special. She had shot herself point blank in the forehead, and the bullet simply zipped around underneath the the scalp for a short distance, making a fairly nasty laceration. From what the medics and I gathered, the lady didn't even suffer so much as a concussion.

So the .38 Special is another cartridge that I personally wouldn't entirely trust for self-defense, but I do think it's a wonderful shooter.

 

[ACP]

I agree with the need to put multiple rounds on target quickly. I also agree with shot placement. I also agree that you should have a gun on you, any caliber, and that's better than bare hands.

But seeing as how we're all advanced theorists here, I'll state my preferences. I shoot my 1911-style Colt .45 ACP faster and more accurately than the Glock 19 and Browning Hi Power I have owned. Re: shot placement, if the target stands still full frontal 7 yards away and isn't shooting back at the moment, I'll be happy to try for the "X" ring. If the target is moving, partially concealed, firing back, some distance away, and the light isn't quite right, I'll be happy with whatever blood I can draw, cover I can find, distance I can create, and exit I can find.

If it comes down to carrying a Kahr K9 all the time in a pocket instead of a .45 ACP Government Model just sometimes on the hip, by all means go 9mm. But for me, who is willing to wear the necessary covering garment, I will carry a .45 ACP or a .357 Magnum.

But as to the original thread topic... Oh, heck. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[Smoke]

To the .38 argument. I know a former cop who witnessed a man with a .380 ball lodged firmly in his forehead. The guy was up and walking around. (I'm sure he had quite a headache though )

To the 9mm vs. 10mm vs. .40 vs. .45

Enough already.

There are no tests that can prove one is better than the other. To many variables. Ballistic jello is nice but throw a bone or two in there every once in a while and re-evaluate.

Effectiveness of any round will be determined by:

Shot placement
Penetration
Velocity
Type of round (FMJ, JHP, etc)
Clothing worn
Path of the bullet
Density of flesh
Contact with bones, cartiledge, etc.
etc. ad nauseum


When you encounter a lethal force situation, pull your weapon (whatever it may be) and shoot until the threat stops (however many rounds it takes) with whatever it is loaded up with.

 

[ElAlumno]

Some people seem to love the 45 tot he point that even IF it could be proven that there was a better caliber they wold never agree/see it.

I have seem all too many shootings in the last 20 years. What I have learned is that generally speaking pick a good caliber (9mm, 38 Super, 357 mag or sig, 10mm, 40S&W, 41 or 44 mag, 45, etc) with a good load and bullet combitnation that you can control and handle and shoot accurately. Then expect it to fail.

BTW, I have seen what a .22lr does as it zigs and zags through a body and seen how some major calibers just poke clean little holes in a body.

You like the 9mm? Good, pick a nice gun that is reliable, load it with a good JHP and practice, practice, practice.

 

[Bobarino]

i don't think the difference is at all irrelevent. at the local range, 9mm costs $7.99/box and .45ACP costs $10.99/box for practice ammo. that could be an $18 difference in a typical trip to the range for me. thats a pretty big difference. i don't really shoot either though, so it doesn't matter.

Bobby