Different Strokes...

[Werewolf]

I was talking to a new friend the other day. Seems he's a gunny. Specifically he's one of those bench resters that I just don't get.

He weighs every case, every bullet and is so anal about charge weight that he will use a pair of tweezers and add or remove on single grain (that's a piece not the weight) of powder.

He is very proud of his efforts. He can put 165gr HPBT .308 into a 4 inch circle at 600 and 800 yards and brags on groups at 100 yards of .25 to .4 inches.

All his shooting is done from a rest - not a bag but a solid locked down rest fore-end and butt. He is very proud of his skill.

I don't have the heart to tell him he has no shooting skill - all he's doing is conducting an exercise in manufacturing and test set up. There's no human skill involved in his shooting at all. It's all mechanical.

I don't get it. There's no challenge in what he does - it's the machine not him.

So what am I missing - how can what he does be anything other than just pure tedious?

Someone - please - explain it to me...

 

[migoi]

Maybe...

the pleasure is in the understanding of the needing to add or subtract a very minute bit of powder, in the understanding of how to compensate for minute variation in bullet weights, wind currents, and gravity effects over distance.

I don't quite understand the pleasure people get from various types of shooting either but I firmly believe we have enough room in our sport for all of them.

That some one take that much pleasure in something that to me seem pointless does not bother me until the pretend their type of shooting is superior to other types. It's the attempts to claim one type of shooting is "better" than another type that I find disturbing.

just one man's opinion....

migoi

 

[Bobarino]

i'd suggest trying to shoot groups as well as he does and THEN come back and tell us how there's no human skill involved. i'd be willing to bet that even with his loads, in his gun, with his rest, you couldn't shoot the same kind of groups at 800 yards.

Bobby

 

[Werewolf]

i'd suggest trying to shoot groups as well as he does and THEN come back and tell us how there's no human skill involved.

There is skill involved - a great deal of skill in manufacturing his cartridges and gunsmithing his rifles. And that's useful skills to have.

But there is no skill involved in the shooting. He mounts the rifles in mechanical rests. His involvement ends at pulling the trigger. That's all he touches - the trigger.

That is not shooting skill. I don't know what it is but it sure as hell isn't shooting skill.

Please don't get me wrong. There's a place for the benchrest guys. I just really don't see the challenge or the fun in it. I suppose it is like owning a Ferrari and just keeping it in the garage after testing it to make sure it'll really go 230 MPH. There's guys like that (Jay Leno?). I just don't get it. Does that make me a bad person?

 

[esheato]

Why don't you just ask him?

Sit down and have a candid conversation with the guy. Explain your point of view and come to the table with an open mind. It might be a tad bit more difficult than you had originally thought....

Use this opportunity and learn a separate facet of the shooting disciplines.

Ed

 

[LHB1]

Why are you complaining? Who says you have to get it or like it? You do your thing and let him do his. In fact, there is skill involved in shooting tiny bench rest groups besides the physical loading, gunsmithing, etc. There is the consistency measured to tiny fractions of pressure applied to the gun at any place, even and including the rest and where it touches the gun from shot to shot. There are also the effects of reading mirage and wind, both speed and direction. Mirage affects the "seen" vs "actual" location of target and wind affects the actual drift/impact of bullet. I am told there is even skill required in correctly using a Ransom Pistol Rest to obtain valid results.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

 

[Werewolf]

Why are you complaining? Who says you have to get it or like it? You do your thing and let him do his.

I'm really not complaining though it may sound like it (communications is not one of my primary skills). I would like to get it but this guy is a co-worker and a really good guy. He's a potential new shootin' bud. I don't want to piss 'im off by asking him Why the heck do you waste your time on such a thing. I know he enjoys what he does but HELL(!) I just don't get it.

Maybe if I did get it another aspect of the whole hobby would open up to me. I do reload but only for handguns and in my experience the precision the benchrest rifle guys use is unnecessary to achieve an equal level of precision. I mean - what the hey! 25 yards is about as far as I shoot any of my handguns. Heck! I only shoot my rifles out to 200 yards. If I can consistently hit a man sized silhouette at what ever range I'm shooting at then I figure I'm doing good enough - and you know what - good enough is - as Phillip Crosby (the Quality Assurance guru) said - good enough.

So I guess what I'm looking for is a benchrest guy to explain to me the allure - what makes it fun? I know what makes it challenging as a pure exercise in manufacturing process controll but what makes it fun as an exercise in shooting?

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

There are quite a few disciplines in shooting I'm not interested in.


HOWEVER,


I never, ever criticize any of them as being skill-less. That's simply not true. Every single shooting discipline involves skill. Each type of shooting has its excellence. For example, no one is going to shoot a 4" group at 800 yards unless they can read wind pretty well. Also, even with a hair-trigger, the pull is critical - regardless of how the rifle is rested. In the benchrest world, everything effects how the rifle shoots. Especially you.


I'm not a benchrest shooter, nor do I care for it. I too think it is a little too mechanical. It is more of a tweakers type of thing. But there is skill involved. If it were just pulling a trigger like you describe, then I could just cough up $10,000 for a rifle and reloading set up and pull my own trigger and compete with the best in the nation. I'll "buy and manufacture the skill"..


Try it yourself. You'll end up on the cover of some gun magazine. Maybe you'll get some small endorsements in the industry. You'll be the "man" at the local range.

 

[colt.45]

i agree with warewolf. REAL benchrest shooters dont have to rely on machines, hell, i could do it with all those vices. all you have to do is stand back and pull the triger. it should just be you, your rifle, a bench and some sandbags

yes there is skill involved in how he is shooting, 4" at 800 is damn good. but he would be considered a much better shot if he could do it in prone.

 

[Deer Hunter]

To each his own. I'm no bench-rest shooter (havn't shot my guns from a rest in a least two years), but I can see that this guy likes to have small groups. Good for him, even if he does only pull the trigger. Maybe the way you shoot requires slightly more skill, but think about it like this: At least he's shooting!

 

[dakotasin]

there's a lot more going on there than meets the eye... as an accuracy-freak and long range shooter, i will tell you that what you think is going on, isn't. it really isn't easy to shoot half-moa groups at 800 or 1000 yards, even in a return-to-battery set-up.

bobarino knows what i'm saying... benchresting isn't an easy sport, and everything is so critical. as far as enjoyment, some guys like punching impossibly small groups. some like shooting at ridiculously long range, and some like to blast away at the 100 yard line and maybe even hit a target once in awhile.

if you really, truly want to see what a rifle is capable of, you do what he does: you alter loads, you tinker w/ the bedding, mess w/ the firing pins, change forearm pressure, and all that - that is where the skill is. if he's shooting in a return-to-battery set-up, he knows precisely what every influence does to his rifle, and where its peak accuracy is at. it isn't as much in the shooting skill as it is in the gun-tinkering skill - which is a hobby unto itself.

 

[pauli]

not more skill, not less skill, just different skill.

it's sorta like an all out drag car with an automatic. "all ya gotta do is stomp on the pedal!" well, you try it, and see how well you do.

there are many different aspects to every field of endeavor; some people are naturally wired to take great satisfaction from arranging for things to go right, over and over, where the human is there to conduct the mechanical symphony, not play a solo.

some of these people are called "engineers," and we owe a few things to them

 

[LHB1]

Hi Werewolf,
Glad you understood the tone of my previous post. I wasn't trying to be smarta**. There are many aspects to shooting. Try something new. You might like it or find something which will help in other shooting disciplines. I have played with varmint and hunting rifles at 100-300 yds including some amateur benchrest shooting with .222 which netted 5 shot groups of .333 at 100 yds. Also won several club shooting contests with rifles (200 yds) and pistols at 25-50 yds where no rests were allowed. My primary shooting these days is bullseye pistol, no rest, at 25 yds with two hands. (Can't hold pistol with one hand any more due to age problems.) Pistols used are S&W M41 or Marvel Unit 1 (.22), S&W M629 (.44), and Wilson Classics (.45). I shoot a standardized program, record my scores, and compete against myself. I also have LOTS OF FUN! And that is the name of the game as far as I am concerned.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

 

[Schleprok62]

I kind of liken this to Bowling. Yes, Bowling. The "sport" where you take a ball and roll it down the lane in an effort to hit pins. Most people go bowling to have fun, and don't care if they get strikes or spares, or even what their score is. Most people have little to no understanding of all of those marks on the floor.

Whereas others, take a lot of time to learn and practice the what's and how to's of what those marks do. It takes a lot of time and practice to hit that same mark, time after time after time. The amount of oil on the lane, the type of ball used, the cover stock of the ball, the amount of spin and speed on the ball at release, and numerous other factors have a great deal of effect on the final result.

So, to me, what this gentleman is doing, could be considered "extremist" in the world of shooting. It could also be considered hobbyist. The way I see it, he's doing what he likes to do... and you're doing what you like to do.

Now for the morbid sick twist... it is quite possible, that sometime in the future, you just may someday progress into his realm. And it's great that you would have someone to go to for technical advice...

Is there skill involved? Yes, it requires some kind of skill to do anything...

 

[jerkface11]

Obviously you should loan him your rifle dies and reloading supplies. And a large supply of your favorite bullet.

 

[Werewolf]

Obviously you should loan him your rifle dies and reloading supplies. And a large supply of your favorite bullet.

Now there's an idea...

But all I've got are pistol dies. Damn! :banghead:

 

[mmike87]

The the VERY least, the human skill is setting up and tuning the machinery to be able to shoot those groups. There are many facets of shooting sports, and this is one of them.

I personally am more interested in practical shooting, but that's me. I have a lot of respect for anyone who can make 1/4" groups at 100 yards.

He's right to proud of himself.

 

[hksw]

There is skill involved - a great deal of skill in manufacturing his cartridges and gunsmithing his rifles. And that's useful skills to have.

But there is no skill involved in the shooting. He mounts the rifles in mechanical rests. His involvement ends at pulling the trigger. That's all he touches - the trigger.

That is not shooting skill. I don't know what it is but it sure as hell isn't shooting skill.

Well, you recognized the manufacturing portion of the process, and others have discussed the labor and cost intensive setting up of the proper equipment but your still not seeing what kinds of skill there is to shoot the small groups.

Why don't you try this, you shoot groups with your best rig and load, he shoots groups with his best rig and load, you shoot groups with his best, he shoots groups with your best. Compare groups.

In bechresting, groups are everything. Since you're questioning his skill and sport, you'll have to enter his realm. (That is do what he is doing to see the benefits, not as him to do what your doing as I'm sure he's been there/done that.)

 

[Terrierman]

I'm not into it but I get there's definitely knowledge, skill and ability involved with that program. If you turned me loose with a budget to accomplish the same results, there would be a learning curve for sure, if nothing else to find all the right stuff and to learn how to use it reasonably well. Also the skill to perform all the necessary tasks with the necessary level of precision would be a while coming (I think). Whatever floats your boat, its all good, and lots other good cliche's come to mind about the whole thing.

 

[travis301]

I dont get them either.I would describe myself as a perfectionist though and when it came to reloading and shooting centerfires though,I thought I had it whipped until I started shooting with somebody like that.The guy taught me more in a hour than a lifetime of books could've done.I am now a lot better shot on the bench and in the field.Listen and learn from him.I kinda compare them to the BMW ad "the relentless pursuit of perfection".