differing recommendations on Pietta Revolver powder ???load

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ArcherandShooter

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Hey, y'all, I have a question...

My Pietta "1851 Navy Colt" revolver replica (.44 cal) manual says the max recommended load of FFFg powder is 12 - 15 grains.

The "Traditions" reference manual I got says a typical load for .44 cal BP revolvers is 25 - 30 grains of the same powder.

That is one honking big difference, and I was wondering if anyone here has experience with Pietta revolvers and can tell me something about load sizes for them. I don't want to blow the thing apart, but I can't help being puzzled at how far below other revolvers that 12 - 15 grains is. Is it something about the Colt design as opposed to other BP revolvers? Is it the Italians being over-cautious to the point that ANY problem will be looked at as an overload (and thus not their problem)?

Any ideas? thanks.
 
Is the frame brass? Heavier loads will stretch out a brass frame sooner. The cylinder can take as much powder as you can physically fit behind the ball, as often as you want. But a brass frame will have a very limited lifespan, and max loads will shorten it.

May also be that Pietta only has one manual for .36 and .44 cal Navies. About 15 gr is about right for a .36 cal Navy.
 
An old timer told me many years ago that a rule of thumb for a C&B revolver starting load is half the caliber. A .36 would be 18gr, a .44 would be 22 gr. If it's a brass frame reduce it.
 
A&S, just be sure that there's enough volume with the powder and ball in place to still be able to pack the ball against the powder.

In the case of my Remington 1858's without a wad or other spacer/filler the minimum charge is 30gns. Even with that I can feel the balls compress the powder and then the lever and ram bottoms on some of the loads that were likely not "settled" in the measure as well as some others. So for me with my Uberti 1858's 30gns is the minimum unless I'm using a filler or wad.

I've got to pick up some Cream of Wheat for my next session to try some lower power loads. But really with a steel frame I'm not worried about 30 grns since it gives me the same or perhaps slightly less felt recoil as a .38Spl out of my S&W Model 19. If all the steel in the Remington design can't handle the Mighty Power of a .38Spl equivalent then I've really got troubles.... :D

Mostly I'd like to play with loads from 25 to maybe 33 grns and add filler or lubed wads to get the ball to sit out further in the chamber so it doesn't need to travel as far to get to the forcing cone. With the 30 gns/no wad the nose of the ball is WAAAAAAY down in the chamber to where I resorted to just putting a nice heavy drop of oil on the joint and letting it wick around to seal against the chainfire issue. I'm thinking of the effect of the ball depth on longer range accuracy for grins and giggles more than anything else. Certainly for the meager requirements of the cowboy action shooting the deep seating was just fine.
 
BCRider, you should do a range report on how the uses of a filler to move the ball closer to the forcing cone effects accuracy. I have tried filler twice with a 1858 target model Pietta. I did not see a noticeable difference. That may be because I'm just shooting free hand, not from a rest or sandbag.
 
Yer on! Just last night I was picking up some goodies from the market and got a bag of Oat Bran. This is a fine ground wheat cereal that looks to have roughly the same granulatirty as my black powder. I didn't get the Cream of Wheat since all the ones they had where the flavoured "instant" ones that had sugar in their makeup. And there's NO WAY I wanted sugar of any sort in my guns.
 
12-15 gr is about right for a 36 Pocket Navy or Police, but Pietta doesn't make the properly sized Police, the Pietta is just a shortened Navy, so the load should go up accordingly. The Uberti Police and Pocket Navy are on the Pocket frame, and do use the 12-15 charge.
 
Back to the original question...I just picked up a 44 cal 1858 Remington steel frame today (my first BP). I read both the Cabelas & Pietta book and noticed the exact same issue. That really had me confused. 12-15 vs 30 is a big difference.
Thanks.
 
I may be on the heavy side for sport shooting with my 30 grns but since it only generates a kick similar to a .38Spl I seriously doubt I'm in any danger of damaging my Uberti 1858 clones. And it certainly is better to shoot a grain or two more if it will ensure a good solid packing vs shooting light but not having the ram travel needed to fully pack the powder. THAT would lead to pressure spikes that would do a lot more harm than just the extra pressure of a grain or two of excess. Besides, if I'm going to shoot BP I want it to feel like more than a .22 or what the heck is the point? :D

Shinbone, congrats on your 1858. Which maker is it? And keep in mind that we're mixing up .36's and .44's in this thread and the loads for each are quite a bit different.
 
It's a Pietta. New. I'm sure eager to try it out. But unfortunately no place to shoot. :(
Plus, I think it would be fun to go with someone who knew what they were doing; at least the first time or two.
 
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Relax. You can literally load a steel frame revolver with powder to the point where the ball just barely fits and it will still be safe to shoot.

I have no idea why Pietta's manual states such a small load. Frankly, I disagree with articap and Archerandshooter:
Quote:
Is it the Italians being over-cautious to the point that ANY problem will be looked at as an overload (and thus not their problem)?
Bingo!
Click to expand...
I've not yet seen Pietta (or a Pietta supplier) refuse a return because they claimed the gun was overloaded. I suspect that the difference is really more a matter of an interpretation of the term 'grain'.

Regardless of Pietta's motivation, the bottom line is that the experience of many, many Pietta owners is that the Traditions numbers are more reasonable.
 
Shinbone, as a new to the fold BP shooter as well I hear your concerns. I went through them earlier in the month when I got my own two revolvers just in time to attend my first CAS event.

Just to make sure I knew what I was doing my first shot was a single load in one chamber. All went well so I loaded all six and shot them with no issues at all.

Before going out to try it I put together a field reloading kit made up of a rather quicky wooden holder to hold the guns muzzle up and set myself up with a low, wide mouth glass sealer jar using the steel ring but with a plastic Kydex "lid" to avoid any steel on steel issues. I keep the powder in that jar. the low format and wide mount makes it nice for scooping out the powder using my home made "ladle" measure. It's a .44Mag casing trimmed by about 3/16 inch on my lathe to hold 30 grains as per my adjustable "stick" measure tool that came with a bunch of BP support stuff I bought from a local guy. I've got a flask as well but the stem only delivers around 20 grains of powder so that's not of much use.

For capping I'm using CCI #11's and they fit my Uberti nipples just fine other than for one super tight one that needs two hits to fire. That one will be removed and trimmed a hair. Or I may just mark it and not load it since with CAS I'm only allowed to load five chambers and lay the hammer on the empty. I had to use a stick to push the caps on quite strongly to where I was definetly keeping my support hand and fingers well away from the front end of the cylinder "just in case". Since then a new thread about how much it takes to actually fire a cap has eased my mind a lot on this count. But I will still be keeping my fingers and hand away from the front of the cylinder "just in case" and I suggest you train yourself to do likewise. It's not a "gun" until you add the caps but during and following the capping you sure do want to treat it like it could go off at any time. So avoiding the front of those six "mini barrels" just makes sense to me. HEY! If we wanted simple and safe we'd be sticking to brass cartridges.... :D

So yeah, some time spent getting the support junk together won't be wasted. Also do not forget the light leather gloves. No need to duplicate Ginormous' experience when a cap or two came loose and resulted in a rear access chainfire and subsequent badly burned hand. For CAS I needed my left hand free to load the shotgun so I only wore one glove and just tried to keep my left out of the way as much as practical. But as I found out on one stage where the timer beeped and I drew and realized that I didn't have my glove on the pistol slips around in your hand a LOT more with no glove than with one.

What's the issue with finding a place to shoot? A local indoor range said no BP because it just makes way too much smoke. And I can see that. But if you're at an outdoor range what's the issue?

Oh, and be sure to take some Advil with you because your grin muscles will be so tired and aching by the time you're done that you'll need it.... and NOTHING is worse than a charlie horse in a face muscle.... :D
 
You can get replacement nozzles for flasks that throw different charges, and if you stick to one gun you can get an oversize nozzle and shorten it to throw exactly your favorite charge.
 
I also use a Pietta 1851 Navy, one in .36 one in .44. I was also caught by the 12 grains max load that made me scratch my head.

I can't remember what the book said for the .36, but it was even LESS. I thought about it for a bit, and then I must admit I threw the manual away.

As I understand it the idea behind black powder is touching or compressed loads, as opposed to modern propellants where you need a gap between the powder and the bullet (assuming you aren't loading for a compressed load, but lets not cloud that issue). Not having the ball, or filler, touching the powder means it'll literally explode. Making it more dangerous than the expansion behind a bullet that's seated properly.

Also look at the cylinder. While the .44 has obviously had a little more removed than the .36 does, there is still a heck of a lot of steel, and not very much in the way of powder. Even with a relatively volatile powder like fffg, 30 grains isn't very much.

Whlie the open topped revovlers areweaker than their top strapped counter parts, there isn't _that_ much to worry about, especially as you said it is a steel frame.

DOn't hold back, but if you are worried about starting at max loads, and don't want to use the book's minimum load, use your DF. :)

KBK
 
Whlie the open topped revovlers areweaker than their top strapped counter parts
Click to expand...
I don't agree.

Consider this:
The open tops have a much, much bigger, stronger cylinder pin that is structurally significant (ie, it actually carries load, as opposed to the top strap designs where the cylinder pin is much weaker and not fixed at the forward end, thus carrying no significant bending loads). The lack of a top strap is structurally irrelevant as the cylinder pin forms the truss closeout function of the top strap in the open top design.

Take a section through both designs, draw the free body load diagrams and tell me which has more bearing area and is therefore stronger.

It's about time this myth of the top strap being stronger was laid to rest.
 
You may be right mykeal and it's a statistical numbers game that's played out between the many, many thousands of open top and top strap models ever produced.
What I think that most people's perspective of strength is based on is the concept of the long term rigidity, soundness or integrity of having a "fixed barrel" vs. an "unfixed barrel".
The fixed barrels do not have the same amount of variables in their design that make them thought of as being a more rigid and soundly made gun with less potential for manufacturing variations and structural defects to appear during their lifetime. Thus tighter specifications are the result which are often equated with having more structural soundness.
The unfixed barrel open tops may not be an inherently weaker design in theory, but in reality the many manufacturing variables simply aren't as precisely repeatable so the specifications are intentionally made to be looser, at least giving the appearance of design weaknesses whether they're justified to be blamed on its design or not.
It's more about the perception of the comparative frames being more or less rigid and therefore being able to withstand more abuse and a longer life. While a well made open top may be functionally as strong as the fixed barrel and most are, an open top that isn't as well made just won't be as strong and that will show up from time to time.
So while most unfixed barrels are just as "rigidly strong" as any fixed barrel, IMO some just aren't manufactured well enough to remain that way due to the test of time, materials and/or workmanship. :)
 
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The promised range report (with photo)

OK, I've been to the range twice since we started this, and have settled on a 25 grain load of Pyrodex (fffg equivalent), and found it easy to load and set, and shooting slightly hot, but the recoil is very manageable.

Attached is a photo of me after getting somewhat used to this load. 25 gr Pyrodex pushing .44 cal round ball from the revolver I'm holding, shooting 50 feet away on a breezy day. Shooting one-handed, too, btw.
 

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Looks like you've sorted out a working load for that pistol. All 18 rounds in the boiler room is proof there have been no tough guys since the invention of black powder. :)
 
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