Piettta recommended pwder charge vs reality

[CHM]

I had an enjoyable afternoon shooting my Pietta steel framed Navy revolvers and used the recommended charge of 12 grains FFFg (the manual states 9-12 for .36 caliber revolvers). The guns fired well and I was shooting at water filled plastic bottles at around 10-15 rounds. With this charge, many of te lead balls bounced off the bottles or knocked them down. Not too impressive in terms of penetration or downrange ballistics. it is my impression 12 grains is a relatively light load and 15-20 grains is about the "real world" charge. Perhaps Pietta publishes these light loads to cover there a$$?? Any thoughts? Thanks

 

[the Black Spot]

i have shot 20 gr of FFFg all the time.

 

[rdstrain49]

The proper load is whatever works best in your weapon. My Uberti New Model Navy likes 21.4 gr of Pyrodex. Very small groups and rather potent.

 

[kameron1858]

my 1858 pietta said 30garin max load but i have herd that some say 15-18 max with the same gun so i dont know

 

[Foto Joe]

I took my Uberti '62 Police out for a walk today. I load this gun with 16gr 3f Goex then top it off with 10gr of cornmeal. I wouldn't hesitate to drop 20gr of powder into this gun except I don't have a 20gr spout.

I was shooting at a satellite dish with a paper plate taped to it at 30 yards. I've had .44 RB's loaded in front of the 16gr fail to penetrate that dish. Not so with the .36 Caliber, it hammered the dish with 16gr. One of these days I'll have to chronograph the load and see what it's doing, but I was impressed that it would make it through a dish at 30 yards.

Shoot what ever is comfortable for you. If it's a steel frame, I wouldn't worry about hurting the gun. You have to remember, the attorneys have quite a say in what the published literature for these things say.

 

[damoc]

my steel pietta 58 likes 35 grains fffg 777

yep sorry to clear this up this is for 44 cal

hehe is there any other for the 58 I thought 36 was for pocket pistols and colts

 

[BHP FAN]

they write those things as a ''generic'' sheet, so that they cover a bunch of different models, both brass and steel frame.that's why under dissasembly, they tell you to pop out the barrel wedge, even though you bought a Remington.

 

[Noz]

Be aware that you are getting 44 cal recommendations from some of the posters.

 

[Prairie Dawg]

Back in the days when I shot target matches with a .36 Colt repro, everybody was shooting around 12 grains because that was the most accurate load.
Cap guns generally shoot best with very light loads.
Brass-framed guns will last longer with ultra light loads as well.
The Lyman Black Powder Handbook from 1975 lists data from 14 - 29 grains FFFg for round balls, and from 9 - 15 grains for conicals.

Now, what are you going to use the gun for?

--For target loads, light loads are probably still the best. Accuracy vs powder charge should be determined for each gun. If the competition is stiff, you will need to do this carefully to be competitive with the serious shooters.

--For Cowboy Action shooting, you don't need a real heavy load as the targets are only 7 yards away or so. Accuracy is still important, but recoil management and speed for acquiring the next shot is important as well, especially if you are going to be competitive.

Drawback--the tiny little 81 grain ball doesn't make a loud "ding", so expect some hits to be counted as missed targets. I no longer shoot .36s in important matches because of this.

--Long range shooting (Data from Lyman Handbook)--20 grains Gearhart-Owen FFFg sends the little ball out at 967 FPS and it drops a 13 inches at 75 yards. 26 grains sends it 100 fps faster and it drops about 11 inches at 75 yards. G-O Black Powder eventually became Goex.

--Self Defense--Even though Wild Bill used them, I would probably choose a larger caliber.

SO what is the meaning of a "real world" charge?
These guns can be used in so many different ways that there is no one best charge.

By the way, 3 of the best Frontiersman Cowboy Action shooters I know shoot 15-17 grains FFFg behind a .457 round ball in Ruger Old Armies. Why such a light load. Because for them, "real world" means bringing home the first place buckle, and to do that you have to be fast.

I also shoot with an FBI agent who puts 40 grains FFFg behind his round balls in a set of stainless Old Armies, because for him, "real world" means that someone is shooting back at him and he does not want to get used to shooting a light load.

WHat do I shoot?
15-20 grains FFFg in my .36s and 20-25 grains FFFg in my .44s

And Noz is correct--some of these fellas are giving you .44 loads!

Hope this helps.
--Dawg

 

[Noz]

Dawg, I don't shoot 36s but the 44 load is right on. I use FFg instead of FFFg would be the only difference. That load in my Armys ring the targets and produce a satisfying boom and smoke cloud.

 

[Tinpan58]

I two have a pietta 1851 navy steel frame, .36, just got it about a month ago have had it out twice now. I am using 17g Hodgdon triple 7 fffg. seems to be a good load, Shoots slightly high at 7 yrds, I lower the front sight a little in the rear and it hits just above the tip of the front sight, I am only shooting paper targets at the range but I have watch when my wife is shooting with that load and have seen the balls skipping through the dirt pretty far down range, they look like they have a good amount of energy in them certainly enough to go thru plastic bottles. I have the Lyman black powder hand book, and they don’t even list a charge below 15g for .36 cal. pyrodex p is the closest powder two what I am using that they list, 17g should put you around just over 800 fps & 115 ft/lbs energy out of the barrel and around 760 fps & 101 ft/lbs energy at 25 yrds. I did load a couple of cylinders with 20 gr.., didn’t notice any real change in accuracy, only did it because I didn’t use wads on those cylinders just a drop of canola oil on every other ball for lube and chain-fire protection saves some time reloading. I have a pietta remington .32 cal pocket and I load it with 10 gr. so 12 in the .36 seems kinda week especially if you are shooting bottles, penetrating boards or phone books. I would sure like to know what loads wild bill used in his 1851s when he shot tutt from 75 yards, from what I read some accounts say the ball entered between the ribs, I would think that would take more than 20g at 75 yrds, I am sure wild bill could have had any gun of the time and most likely had a chance to handle and shoot most of them, but still chose to stick with the 1851 navy maybe that was the gun he grew up with, whatever the case he must of had every confidence the could do the job.

 

[J-Bar]

I consider 18 grains of FFG Schuetzen under a .380 round ball to be my standard light cowboy action load in my 1851s. No noticeable recoil, nice smoke, nice "ding".

For "serious" competition I would use my ROAs, not my 1851s.

 

[makos_goods]

CHM,
Prairie Dawg has given you the best answer.

Noz get's confused when he uses .36 caliber because they roll out of his 1860s if he lowers his barrels. But he is right about some posters giving you .44 data. This has become a problem since Pietta started making their "fictional" or whatever you want to call it .44 caliber 1851 revolvers. When you say 1851 to long time percussion revolver shooters we immediately assume .36 caliber.

I personally use 20 grains in a '51 or in a '61 because I also have a wad in there. I have used up to 22 grains for shooting at critters.

I, like Noz primarily shoot .44s and I shoot heavier loads than he does. Dawg is right about the 86 grain ball making a wimpy ding on steel targets. I would shoot my 1861s and my other Navy revolvers like 1851 and Leech and Rigdon Confederate Navy "copies" more if it weren't for that problem and the spotters missing the hit. I almost exclusively shoot 1860s in competition.

I was reading about your balls bouncing off, that doesn't surprise me with those lighter loads. With 12 grains you may not have been getting good compression on your powder. Your balls needs to be firmly seated against your powder to be safe and to work correctly. Air gaps between bullet and powder with BP is a no-no.

I have seen .36 cal. balls bounce off of a plywood backstop and after watching the young man shooting it I noticed he was barely seating the balls in the chamber and he was using a very short spout on a plastic powder measure. I talked to him a minute and after his next cylinder full I convinced him to let me load one round and shoot it with a fuller chamber. I don't know what the charge was but he was impressed because the gun boomed and it definitely made a hole in the backstop. It took two other shooters backing me up to convince him I wasn't telling him to load some "magnum" charge. I told him to go to a local gun store I knew and ask for a 20 grain spout from their black powder guy and to tell him I had sent him. I don't know if he ever went.

Navy models are fun to shoot and point very well for most people. A 20 grain load is what was recommended by Colt in one of their old publications. Of course those were meant for combat. You can shoot lower charges for target, but with .36 caliber 20 grains to 22 grains is still a very, very low pressure and pleasant to shoot load. 20 grains is actually equivalent to a wimpy standard velocity .380 ACP load but in a relatively heavy pistol. Very easy and pleasant to shoot.

The best to you...make sure you seat those balls firmly against the powder.

~Mako

 

[black_powder_Rob]

This may sound nuts but how many grains does a 357 case hold, cause that is what I load my 36, cal 51 with.... sometimes, most other times I use a 38 special case. Not really sure how much each holds but the 357 case fills the powder to the top of the cylinder with just enough room for compression and the ball seated on top. Sure does make a nice boom and a cloud of white smoke.

 

[arcticap]

A .38 Special case will hold 23 grains of black powder and a .357 case will hold 27 grains of black powder.

 

[makos_goods]

A .38 Special case will hold 23 grains of black powder and a .357 case will hold 27 grains of black powder.

Exactly right.

I used a .357 mag case once at a match to load my '60s when I ran off and forgot two powder flasks.:banghead:

I had a spare can of FFFg in my ammo box and was trying to use a .38 spl case as a measure. .44WCF and .45 Colt was too much. Someone handed me a .357 case and it looked like it was just about right. I measured when I got home, pretty close to 27 grains which is a load I have shot a lot of for CAS under a .44 caliber ball.

If memory serves me I think a .44 Spl case may be a rough 34 grain measure.