Digital Scale -Odd Fluctuations

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If you purchased a typical RCBS or Lyman calibration weight set, the details about their certification standard level are readily available and are typically considered adequate for the activity they're typically used in conjunction with.

The reason leap seconds are sometimes required is the time our planet takes to complete a solar orbit varies more than the timekeeping ability of our atomic clock standard.
 
If you have only 1 watch, you have no comparison. If you get 2 results from watches set the same, you know there's a problem. Troubleshooting 101. Not trying to insult, just calling BS on Seger's Law.

Exactly, if your one tool is always saying it’s hitting the charge right on and you don’t have anything else to check it, you are happy with it’s precision. No need to call BS on it, just means one of your “clocks” are not good enough or they would read the same, unless one has been in orbit for awhile.

Get some standards and get rid of the liar or see if you can fix it. I have more than a dozen scales and balance’s some are trusted more than others. You can go back to that second video in #34 and see why I can trust a cheap beam the same as a fairly expensive digital.

But a single source will not indicate whether or not the variables are eliminated. For instance are the calibration weights trustworthy?

The first video in #34 is why I don’t trust some digitals that cost hundreds of dollars each, as much, even when they both do the exact same thing, as I know both are wrong.

You have two scales that are reading different, there are only two things you can say about them.

A. One of them is wrong
B. Both of them are wrong.
 
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are the calibration weights trustworthy?
Yes, within the weight tolerance specified by the class - https://www.troemner.com/media/downloadablepdfs/tolerance/weight_tolerances.pdf

Most check weights for reloading fall under ASTM Class 6 - https://www.troemner.com/reference-center-files/literature-weights/Selecting-Weight-Classes.pdf
  • ASTM Class 1 - Can be used as a reference standard in calibrating other weights and is appropriate for calibrating high-precision analytical balances with a readability as low as 0.1 mg to 0.01 mg.
  • ASTM Class 2 - Appropriate for calibrating high-precision top loading balances with a readability as low as 0.01 g to 0.001 g.
  • ASTM Class 3 - Appropriate for calibrating balances with moderate precision and with a readability as low as 0.1 g to 0.01 g.
  • ASTM Class 4 - For calibration of semi-analytical balances and for student use.
  • ASTM Class 5 - For student laboratory use.
  • ASTM Class 6 - This class meets the specifications of OIML R 111 Class M2.
  • ASTM Class 7 - For rough weighing operations in physical and chemical laboratories, such as force measuring apparatus.
 
Great points raised by everyone. This is how to move forward and educate. I am a project manager, and work with Engineers often, and get different answers sometimes. Discussion is the best vehicle to determine Root Cause Analysis. This is a good discussion.
 
I agree.

< --- Retired supervisor, compliance coordinator, federally certified healthcare facility surveyor, facility manager, project manager, facility director for state government. :D

"Trust but verify"

"What do you mean we were wrong?" (Words of the Chief Architect when I told him his drawings were wrong)

"Fire sprinklers are supposed to be installed under the ceiling, not above the ceiling" :eek: (My words to the Chief Architect ... And yes, the fire sprinklers were already installed) ... "BTW, blueprints are missing fire alarm pull stations by the exit doors ... And yes, the contractors didn't install them."

"Send me your findings of all the things wrong" (I sent him total of 15 mistakes we kept finding :D).
 
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One thing I want to call out is that Mr. Zorg and I have had private conversations, and he is far more knowledgeable than I am regarding scales. Possibly an expert. I want to make clear that I am not disparaging him or anyone else. I value and welcome all feedback.
 
Thus the Troemner student use weight set I purchased from eBay for about half the price the larger range RCBS & Lyman calibration weight sets are actually literally made to a higher standard.

The preowned vintage apothecary set I purchased from eBay - I honestly dunno but given that medication doses have been commonly specified in milligrams (in one system) for quite some time now, perhaps Class 2?

In the world of my career field, in the subspecialties of industrial control systems, structured hazard evaluation, and risk mitigation, there are specific numerical values to things such as 1 out of 1 (1oo1), 2 out of 2 (2oo2), 2 out of three (2oo3), middle of 3, average of 3, and so on input signals vs courses of action that has its own realm in addition to instrument signal quality and calibration standards. Similar, but far more detailed, and takes the calibration standards used, the calibration frequency of the watches, the build quality and factory QA/QC used for the watches into account along with the number of watches. We've outgrown the two watches aphorism for quite some time now, at a price point, and such logic is in use 24/7/365 for processes with higher potential risk ranking than individual cartridge reloading in terms of both direct human health and environmental impacts.

And yet incidents still occur.

ETA - it's all good discussion. @LiveLife is undoubtedly a deeper expert specifically WRT scales than myself without a doubt. Also undoubtedly with auditing.

My work at the sharp end of the stick was in up front design often with respect to systems never explored before, looking ahead towards audit requirements, and incident investigation for causal factors and figuring out mitigation in a structured quantitative environment, something that was in its infancy when I began my career - the famous Union Carbide incident in Bhopal, India as well as the shipwreck of the Exxon Valdez occurred as I began my career and was still a university student for examples of how things used to be.
 
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Okay, new action plan. I am going to buy a more high end beam, AND a better set of check weights, compare beams and weight sets, to ensure that all variables are eliminated. W*F did I get into? Well, I always do this. You people are maniacle in a good way.
 
I am going to buy a more high end beam
Most USA made reloading beam scales are built to .1 gr resolution (Dillon Eliminator) and some beam scales are no longer made in the USA and some report that consistency is not as good as USA made versions (Ohaus/RCBS 10-10/5-0-5). As we found out from our myth busting threads, not all beam scales will show sensitivity/detection of .1 gr, especially if they are in need of cleaning.

Many digital scales, even cheap ones, can show sensitivity/detection of less than .1 gr but they require use within typical room temperature range of 59F-95F and fresh batteries/warm up, no nearby magnet, light ballast, etc.

In my latest myth busting thread, I posted my digital scales were sensitive and repeatable down to .08 gr - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...les-1-mg-analytical-lab-scale-for-120.873830/

And made more consistent (No drifting of zero) with "fine tuning" of load cell on mount plate - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...tical-lab-digital-scale.876547/#post-11673424

a better set of check weights
Ohaus ASTM Class 6 check weights go down to 1 mg (.015 gr) and in my opinion, good enough to verify reloading scales that need .1 gr resolution - https://www.zoro.com/ohaus-calibration-weight-set-500-to-1mg-80850110/i/G0843236/

Heck, even if a scale was sensitive to and repeatedly verified 10 mg (.15 gr) check weight, I would be OK.
 
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Okay, new action plan. I am going to buy a more high end beam, AND a better set of check weights, compare beams and weight sets, to ensure that all variables are eliminated. W*F did I get into? Well, I always do this. You people are maniacle in a good way.
Those RCBS and Lyman check weight sets are appropriate for general use in our activities here. There's a subset who may really need something from a higher standard, and then folks like me who believe other higher class standard sets won't hurt and may be available at a reasonable price now if we grow into that later.

Trust what we regularly verify maybe is a better approach than trust - but verify. Good enough is good enough, and varies by application.
 
I think I bought your recommendation:
Bekith 17 Pcs Precision Weight 10mg-100g Precision Steel Calibration Weight Kit Set with Tweezers for Digital Balance Scale, Jewellery Scale

  • 1 x 100g, 1 x 50g, 2 x 20g, 1 x 10g, 1 x 5g, 2x2g, 1x 1g, 1x500mg, 2x200mg, 1 x 100mg, 1 x 50mg, 2 x 20mg, 1 x 10mg
 
Having one set in grains and one set in grams & milligrams is a good combination to use together to check calibration close to a specific target load weight IMO.
 
With my digital scale that using a trickler was a nightmare. It would not move weight reading until a minimum change and then often would overshoot the wanted weight. Taking my time and waiting for the sample rate of the scale to recalculate did not seem to matter. The 1010 would change poise position with as little as 5 kernals of IMR3031. The reason for my decision in the above post. My digital was the Lyman, I think 650.
 
I am a project manager, and work with Engineers often..

I’m sorry :)

Okay, new action plan. I am going to buy a more high end beam, AND a better set of check weights, compare beams and weight sets, to ensure that all variables are eliminated.

You don’t need to spend a lot of money on one, a photo electric switch set up can detect movements your eye cannot, even on regular scales.


And it is still just as sensitive up the scale.



Add this stuff


and you will have an auto trickler that’s far cheaper than any of the digital ones I have played with and more repeatable than any of them you can buy under $1000.
 
I’m sorry :)



You don’t need to spend a lot of money on one, a photo electric switch set up can detect movements your eye cannot, even on regular scales.


And it is still just as sensitive up the scale.



Add this stuff


and you will have an auto trickler that’s far cheaper than any of the digital ones I have played with and more repeatable than any of them you can buy under $1000.

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh. What? Blow myself up how?
 
Let’s put this in prospective shall we,,, those cleaned up USA made beam scales are quite capable of resolving one or two kernels of powder The key( for any scale ) is repeatability..
If your load is so sensitive that it’s effected by one or two kernels it’s probably not a good load anyway or you are competing at farther distance than I do.
 
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Let’s put this in prospective shall we,,, those cleaned up USA made beam scales are quite capable of resolving one or two kernels of powder The key is repeatability..
If your load is so sensitive that it’s effected by one or two kernels it’s probably not a good load anyway or you are competing at farther distance than I do.

The bench on your avatar is cool.
 
cleaned up USA made beam scales are quite capable of resolving one or two kernels of powder The key is repeatability.
And good enough to have won and set records for shooting matches for decades, even for long-distance 1000 yard Palma. ;)

There are not only reloading variables but also shooting variables. Being able to meter and weigh powder charges consistently down to .1 gr is only a small part of producing accurate consistent groups that are small/sub MOA.

And even just for pistol loads, these are reloading variables that need to be made consistent/reduced/eliminated for more accurate "match grade" rounds that could easily overshadow variance from powder charges - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-5#post-11672875

And check out "Advanced Reloading ..." thread discussion on pistol loads - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11386382

And check out "Advanced Reloading ..." thread discussion on rifle loads, especially match grade rounds according to US Army Marksmanship Unit - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778221/page-2#post-10938613

effected by one or two kernels
Being able to detect and resolve powder charges down to a single kernel is probably the ultimate hallmark of precision shooting requirement, especially for 600-1000 long distance/Palma match shooting as demonstrated by small groups of member Nature Boy - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/tight-f-class-target.863175/

index.php


This is a close up picture of Varget. Depending on the length/cut, weight of each kernel can swing from .02 gr to .03 gr (1 mg to 2 mg).

Being able to trickle Varget and be able to detect each additional kernel added to the powder charge, to me is good enough for reloading and can be done with many USA made beam scales like Ohaus/RCBS 10-10 illustrated by member jmorris -
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...lab-scale-for-120.873830/page-2#post-11627511

Weighing additional kernels - Once 0.005 g reading has been established ... adding additional kernels and each kernel would increase reading by 0.001 g to 0.002 g (.02 gr to .03 gr) depending on the size/length of kernel I added.​
 
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If a person really wants a great beam scale google (Scott Parker of single kernel scales) he lives in Bakersfield Ca.
Scott will tune your USA made scale OR sell you one of his own inventory, these are guaranteed for life so no worries there although Scott works slowly you must have patience.
Pictured below ( on my Scott Parker tuned scale) are six kernels of Varget totaling 1/10 grain
 

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the results of a good setup: i guess the powder scale is not needed if you have a good enough powder measure.

i have been watching a few of eric's videos and have learned a lot about f-class and how far accuracy has come.

murf
 
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