THR myth confirmation/busting - digital scale accuracy

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Now now, this thread is not about whether accuracy testing of digital scale is needed for reloading. 1000 yard bench rest shooters have been doing just fine with Ohaus 10-10 for decades before digital scales were created. :D

Rather, what we are doing is confirming or busting whether digital scales (even the cheaper $20+ ones) are accurate and consistent enough to be trusted. Since we seemed to have busted that myth, we are just having fun seeing how far we can push the limits of .02 gr resolution digital scales.

Due to the results posted, I may order a Gemini-20 scale to use alongside my two Ohaus 10-10s.
 
Now now, this thread is not about whether accuracy testing of digital scale is needed for reloading. 1000 yard bench rest shooters have been doing just fine with Ohaus 10-10 for decades before digital scales were created.

Rather, what we are doing is confirming or busting whether digital scales (even the cheaper $20+ ones) are accurate and consistent enough to be trusted. Since we seemed to have busted that myth, we are just having fun seeing how far we can push the limits of .02 gr resolution digital scales.

Due to the results posted, I may order a Gemini-20 scale to use alongside my two Ohaus 10-10s.
__________________

Thank you bds, you answered my question in a gentlemanly and sensible manner and I now understand you motive.

Makes perfect sense to me now.

Thanks, jcwit
 
Here is a review from Amazon you might find interesting regarding the Gemini 20 scale.
A great bargain for a cheap scale. It will perform reasonably well if used carefully. Do not expect it to compete in accuracy or durability against laboratory scales, such as those by Mettler or Sartorius selling for $5-10K.

This is a nice little scale with a 4 by 4 inch footprint, about 1-1/2 inch tall, including the clear and colorless hinged draft shield. It fits into a neat magnetic-latch box. Batteries are included, two 10g reference weights, and cheap tweezers. The weighing pan is non-magnetic stainless steel. I have two of these scales to save trips to the weighing room. The first one has been in use for 6 months with no problems.

The scale is not quite ready to use as delivered. First, the weighing pan has adhesive residue. It is that sticky gum that can only be removed effectively with citrus oil or a citrus oil cleaner, such as Goo Gone. Second, and as others have noted, the pan sits too low on the scale body, and often touches the body of the scale during weighing. This, of course, will not work. The remedy is to glue a 10 mm diameter by about 0.5 mm thick non-magnetic metal washer to the underside of the pan. See my photograph at top of the Amazon listing. Although this will reduce the weighing capacity of the scale by the weight of the washer, it is insignificant. The washer I used weighed about 530 mg. Third, the tweezers are crude. If you have any serious weighing to do, you really should buy some quality tweezers with about tip #2. Dumont (Swiss) and others make good stuff. Of course, a single quality tweezer can easily cost more than this scale. You can economize by buying their epoxy coated electronic tweezers.

NOW, REAL TESTING. How accurate? How precise?

To test, I used a set of laboratory reference weights, and an older Mettler Toledo AG204 DeltaRange scale in the lab. This is an expensive machine (about $5-10K depending on features) that measures to 0.1 mg.

First off, on the Mettler, the two 10 g AWS calibration weights weighed in at 9.9991 g and 10.0001 g. Not bad; they were within a milligram.

How about precision? Took a 1000 mg lab reference weight and weighed it on the AWS ten times, with a complete on/off/tare between each weighing and a closed draft hood, in mg: 999, 1003,1001, 1001, 1000, 1000, 998, 998, 1000, 998. Not too bad. Variation of 5 mg. Perhaps with careful placement, a solid surface, and a quiet environment, this variation could be reduced.

How about accuracy? Here are side-by-side measurements of reference weights on the Mettler and the AWS. The scales were not tared each time. Just put the weight on the pan. The AWS was not calibrated first trial, calibrated on the second trial. Accuracy could surely be improved with taring, stable environment, etc.

Calibration weights, in mg - Mettler - uncalibrated AWS (calibrated AWS)
5 - 5.0 - 5 (5)
10 - 10.0 - 10 (10)
20 - 20.0 - 19 (19)
50 - 50.0 - 48 (50)
100 - 100.0 - 100 (100)
200 - 200.1 - 200 (199)
500 - 499.8 - 501 (499)
1000 - 1000.3 - 1001 (999)
2000 - 2000.0 - 2001 (2000)
5000 - 5000.2 - 5005 (5000)
10000 - 9999.6 - 10011 (9999)
20000 - 20000.0 - 20022 (20002)

Again, this is impressive. With calibration, the measurements were off by no more than a milligram or two.

My recommendation is that if you need an inexpensive scale to measure within a few milligrams, and are willing to calibrate manually, buy this scale. If you must have absolute accuracy, set aside at least $10-20K on a laboratory scale, stand, and accessories, and dedicated weighing room. And if you need real accuracy, get an equal-arm balance.

Update 30 May 2012
These two scales have been in use for over a year. Still perform well. They have been repeatedly tested. The measurements continue to be at least as accurate and precise as given above. Measurements have been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. Depending on the project needs, and with reference weights and quality scales to verify performance, you can use this scale for scientific research.

And remember, when you are weighing to the milligram and below, even the best scale will perform poorly with bad technique. This is not some yard-dog scale at a metal recycling plant. Have a clean, stable environment. Eliminate vibration and movement. Place the scale on a stable bench (if possible, granite is used in labs). You should be sitting, not standing. Arms off the bench. Eliminate air currents. No magnets. Keep magnetic steels away. Do not breathe directly on the scale. Use the draft shield. Gently place the object to be weighed on the pan. Don't drop it onto the pan. Don't use your fingers. Do not place the object directly on the pan. Use weighing paper or a disposable pan. After placing it on the pan and closing the draft shield, wait 10 seconds or so, for the scale to settle, before recording the weight. If you would like a fuller explanation of good weighing technique, Mettler has an excellent pdf user guide, "Weighing the right way," on their website.

Update 4 Sept 2012
Some mention should be made of the pan. It is not the usual flat pan, but rather a dish with a spout. It gives the unfortunate impression that one can load a powder or some such in the dish and then pour it out. Not standard practice. For my use the pan is fine, but others should consider a substitute "pan" out of non-magnetic metal or even cardboard with a washer spacer below. The subject powder or object should be placed on weighing paper or weighing cup. Be sure that there is enough room to close the draft hood, because without the draft hood closed, all milligram and sub-milligram scales are unreliable.

Update 9 Sept 2012
For those who have not worked in a lab, some mention should be made, after reading reviews on this scale, just what can be expected from any milligram or submilligram scale, whether it costs $25 or several thousand dollars. At this measurement level, subtle influences can greatly affect measurement. You cannot just throw a sample on the pan and hope for the best. Unfortunately, you need to know what follows.

First off, these are scales, not balances. Balances compare a known, measured, mass against an unknown mass. They operate correctly anywhere there is gravity, no matter what the variation, even on the moon. In contrast, the AWS scale and even many expensive laboratory scales measure the force that gravity and centrifugal force of the earth's rotation exerts on a mass. Because gravitational force and centrifugal force vary slightly with the position of the scale on the earth, all these scales need to be calibrated after installation. Expensive scales do this automatically. With cheap scales, such as the AWS, you do this with a calibration weight. Unfortunately, the AWS calibration weight is too big, so you cannot close the draft shield when calibrating. Bad design. Use an inverted small beaker or such as a draft shield.

Beyond that, there are several other significant sources of error affecting all scales:
1. Drafts. All drafts cause severe variation in recorded weight. Keep away from windows, doors, HVAC outlets, radiators, etc. Use the draft shield.
2. Vibration and movement. This will cause erratic readings and visible drift. Even absent outside movements, expensive scales take several seconds to settle down.
3. Temperature. Expensive scales measure and compensate for temperature, Cheap scales do not. If you have access to a set of milligram reference weights, you can check for this.
4. Humidity. Not too high, not too low.
5. Light. Light causes heat, which changes the measurement. Keep out of sunlight and bright artificial lights.
6. Leveling. Expensive scales have levels. Cheap scales do not.
7. Sample position on pan. Always place sample in the middle of the pan.
8. Electrostatic charge. A common and severe problem with low humidity and non-conductive weighing vessels, such as glass and plastic. Increase the humidity or change the weighting vessel.
9. Temperature gradients. Differences in pan, weighing vessel, and sample temperature causes severe problems because of convection air currents.
10. Magnetism. Obviously, any magnetic attraction between sample and something else will cause problems. Several materials commonly thought of as non-magnetic are somewhat magnetic.
11. Buoyancy. Because of the sample size, the AWS scale should not be affected much by this, unless one is weighing a large, low-density sample, which would be buoyed by air.
12. Oil and dirt. A common problem with beginners. Don't touch the pan or reference weights with fingers; use a tool, such as forceps or tweezers. Use weighing paper or some sort of weighing vessel on top of the pan. Generally, do not place a sample directly on the pan. If you make a mess, Windex is the usual cleaner for scales.

So, for those reviews that claim without qualification that the AWS is accurate down to a milligram, it would take a lot of convincing. On the other hand, for those reviews that claim complete unreliability, assuming the item is not defective, it may just be one of the many inherent weighing problems.

Still, a remarkable scale for the price.
 
That review pretty well sums up my impression of the Gemni 20 scale. It is a remarkable scale for the money. I have also used the $5,000-$10,000 mettler scales that weighted to 0.1mg and some that weighed to the picogram level. Those scales require a special (expensive) installation. Metter scales that can weigh to 0.1gm used to cost $800 - $1,000 and require at least a marble table to prevent vibration interference.

This $50 gemni 20 scale would have been unheard of 20 years ago and is an amazement to me. My scale sets on a wood reloading bench and is not bothered by vibration. Air currents will give it fits and I can't breath on it, but other than that nothing seems to bother it.
 
In analytical chemistry we had a scale room with two older pendulum balances and two brand new digital scales. The room had heating and cooling ducts that were closed off in the daytime, and a darkroom light that was set on dim. The scales were in the glass cabinets of the balances they replaced. The year was 1971, and the new scales were expensive. The new scales weighed to .0001 grams, as did the balances, which could be interpolated to get a little more accuracy.

Now, only 40+ years later, we can purchase a scale that comes to one-tenth of that for only $20. :what: I continue to be amazed.
 
Jesse,

Your RCBS scale will re-tare every time you set it down empty with a tolerance of +/- 0.5 grns. Try throwing a 0.3 grn charge. Basically it can't be done on an RCBS digital scale as once you throw it, the scale will re-zero to 0.00 in a few seconds.

Mine does the same thing.

To measure sub 0.5 grn charges, you need to put in another weight or offset the scale. The easiest way is just take the pan off, tare the scale, put the pan on and you will be 122 grns negative. Then measure your small charges and do the math in your head.

Try it and see if my prognosis is correct on your scale.
 
Walkalong said:
It has been an interesting discussion.
It certainly has and eye-opening for many.


At this point, I think we can conclude:

- Digital scales can be accurate and consistent to .1 gr and be trusted for reloading
- Price of digital scale may not be as significant as the resolution of the scale (.1 gr vs .02 gr)
- While .015 - .02 gr resolution may detect lower weights, .1 gr resolution is sufficient for reloading
- 1/4"x1/4" pieces of 20 lb paper/post-it note weigh between .04 gr - .06 gr (or around .05 gr average)
- 2-3 pieces of 1/4"x1/4" paper should register .1 gr on any beam or digital scale
- When your digital scale fails to detect smaller weights, you can weigh alongside heavier weights


So far, here are the scale results:

bds: FA DS-750 - .1 gr resolution, .1 gr detection of 2-3 pieces of 20 lb paper, .5 gr check weight verified ($25-$30)

Otto: Gemini-20 - .02 gr resolution, .06 gr detection of 20 lb paper, .5 gr check weight verified ($20)

Peter M. Eick: RCBS/Pact Powder Pro - .1 gr resolution, .1 gr detection of 2 pieces of 20 lb paper, .5 gr check weight verified ($150)

rcmodel: "ancient" Cabela/RCBS - Failed to detect up to 6 pieces of paper

rg1: Pact 120v - .1 gr detection of 3 pieces of printer paper, check weight verified

armarsh: A&D FX120i - .015 gr resolution, .04 gr detection of post-it note ($400)

cmb3366: Mettler AE200 - .0015 gr resolution, .058 gr detection of notepad ($200)

RedHawk357Mag: Acculab VIC123 - .015 gr resolution, .04 gr detection of 20 lb paper, .5 gr check weight verified ($240)

Jesse Heywood: RCBS Range Master 750 - .1 gr resolution, Failed to detect up to 10 pieces of 20 lb paper ($110)
 
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Due to the results posted, I may order a Gemini-20 scale to use alongside my two Ohaus 10-10s.

Well, the Gemini 20 scale looks interesting. I ordered one to try.

My only complaint off the top is that it appears to only run off batteries. I wonder how stabile the scale will remain as the batteries run down.
 
I know now I will be checking my RCBS charge master and gem pro. They are in house not in shop as of our temps. down so. Great thread!
 
My FA DS-750 digital scale is still using the 2 AAA batteries it came with. With the auto-shut off feature, it seems to save the battery usage quite a bit. it's been about a year since I bought the scale and it is still going strong and consistent in readings.

I use rechargeable AA/AAA batteries at home and I could do a comparison between older batteries vs fully charged batteries or start a practice to use fully charged batteries for scale use.

If you don't use rechargeable batteries, I guess you could do a yearly battery replacement if your scale doesn't read consistently with check weights.
 
I run by GP250 off the AC adapter and have not put any batteries in it. Works just fine that way. When I'm reloading I just turn it on the night before so I don't have to wait on it. Some reports it takes a little longer to warm up on ac. The nice thing ab out running on ac is that it does not power off on idle time.

As far as the RCBS Rangemaster 750. I found that it has a min that must be on the scale before it starts detecting small weights. It's been a while since I have used mine but if I recall it around 0.6gr.

Question:

What did you use to confirm/measure that the 1/4 x 1/4 pieces of paper weighted 0.04gr. Since these are not calibration weights. Did you have access to to some high grade scales? And I hope all of you handling the calibration weights (and paper) used cleaned/oil free tweezers. If not the oil from your fingers changed the weights.

This was a very interesting thread. Just goes to show how well some of cheap electronics have gotten to be.
 
Well, the Gemini 20 scale looks interesting. I ordered one to try.

My only complaint off the top is that it appears to only run off batteries. I wonder how stabile the scale will remain as the batteries run down.
Same here. Funny as I read your post my wife was clicking through Amazon.

Amazon Gemini 20

I figure for $19.99 and free Amazon Prime shipping my scale will be here Wednesday. Also, at twenty bucks delivered I can't beat that so for twenty bucks I can satisfy my curiosity. :) I guess we will figure out the life of two AAA batteries. Also, no doubt it can be modified to run off a wall wart, something I will look at.

On a side note Wal-Mart sells the same scale for $56.20. By the time I get one through WalMart I can buy 3 at Amazon. Go figure. :)

Ron
 
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Blue68f100 said:
What did you use to confirm/measure that the 1/4 x 1/4 pieces of paper weighted 0.04gr. Since these are not calibration weights. Did you have access to to some high grade scales? And I hope all of you handling the calibration weights (and paper) used cleaned/oil free tweezers. If not the oil from your fingers changed the weights.

So far, various 1/4"x1/4" pieces of paper, whether they are 20 lb copy/printer paper or post-it notes, have ranged from .04 gr to .06 gr on higher resolution (.015 gr - .02 gr) scales on various humidity/temperature conditions.

2 pieces of various paper types have registered around .1 gr on my two Ohaus 10-10 also so I am using the average of .05 gr.

If I am off, someone please verify this for me.
 
For those curious as to the effect of humidity on paper squares I did a small science experiment. Using HP color inkjet paper 24 weight 96 brilliance I did the following.

With an ambient temperature of 73 / 74 degrees F. which the paper was sitting open in I let a single 8.5" x 11.0" sheet of paper sit for about 30 min. I quarter folded and weighed the paper. The full sheet weighs 83.8 grains on my trusty 0.1 grain resolution scale. Now if I were to cut that sheet into 1/4" square pieces that would be 1,496 squares and even using a paper cutter I am not about to embark on that project. However, 83.8 grains / 1,496 = 0.056016 grain per square. Considering 24 Lb paper that sounds about right to me based on the numbers we have seen.

I dragged my piece of paper to the shower and propped it up. The paper was exposed to a temperature of 85 degrees F. and a relative humidity of about 91.5% for about 15 min. I weighed the paper again and it weighed 88.1 grains so the paper did have some water gain. I haven't a clue what it would have taken for the paper to reach a saturation point where it would no longer gain weight. 15 min in a steamy bathroom was enough for me.

So we get 88.1 grains / 1496 = 0.0588904 grain. That would be the average weight per paper square. So following a short exposure to a high relative humidity (higher than paper like this will ever see sans dropping it in a puddle) the weight gain per square was about 0.0028744 grain per square.

While amusing at best this sort of test really says little for a number of reasons. No clue if the paper absorbed moisture uniformly or for that matter how uniform the thickness is of common inkjet paper. While interesting and looking at some of the posted results (and the variance in posted results) unless we know how much weight we are applying to a scale or removing from a scale to get the LSD (Least Significant Digit) to increment or decrement we aren't getting any real useable data.

Now if we want to make an argument as to weather a digital scale is useable and adequate for the hand loader I would think we need supporting evidence as to why a digital scale isn't good enough for its intended use in hand loading. That includes low cost digital scales. We either can make a case or we can't. Now if we make a case then it needs done with solid concrete supporting data and evidence.

Ron
 
Peter M. Eick said:
To measure sub 0.5 grn charges, you need to put in another weight or offset the scale. The easiest way is just take the pan off, tare the scale, put the pan on and you will be 122 grns negative. Then measure your small charges and do the math in your head.

Try it and see if my prognosis is correct on your scale.

That is what I did.
Next I ran the paper again with one washer. 1.5, 1.6, 1.6, 1.7, 1.7, 1.8, 1.8, 1.9, 1.9, 2.0.
I would say that great minds think alike, but mine isn't thinking like it use to. :D

Reloadron said:
I figure for $19.99 and free Amazon Prime shipping my scale will be here Wednesday. Also, at twenty bucks delivered I can't beat that so for twenty bucks I can satisfy my curiosity. I guess we will figure out the life of two AAA batteries. Also, no doubt it can be modified to run off a wall wart, something I will look at.

The instructions are in a pdf on the website.
www.americanweigh.com/product_info.php?products_id=580
I found no mention of a charger jack, so you would have to improvise.
 
Reloadron said:
Now if we want to make an argument as to weather a digital scale is useable and adequate for the hand loader I would think we need supporting evidence as to why a digital scale isn't good enough for its intended use in hand loading. That includes low cost digital scales. We either can make a case or we can't. Now if we make a case then it needs done with solid concrete supporting data and evidence.

IMO, what is needed for the average reloader is consistency. Used properly, the dippers have served the purpose for longer than I have been loading. A scale or balance either weighs the actual charge or checks the charge weight thrown by a measure. The key is obtaining the same charge every time. We test charges to find what works best for our gun(s), then using that charge to produce more rounds.

As long as the measuring device produces the same charge as the test load, everything should work. It doesn't matter if the measure is off a small amount, but it needs to be the same every time.
 
Before anyone goes and orders a Gemini 20 (based on my earlier post) there's a couple of things to be aware of....
First, the pan is very small. It will barely hold 25 gn of Varget.
Second, a RCBS aluminum powder pan will not fit on the Gemini's load cell.
Third, the auto-off feature is short (about a min.) and there's no disabling it.
Fourth, there is no leveling mechanism as with most 0.02 gn scales.
Fifth, it's battery operated only...no option for a wall wart, however battery longevity is good.
Sixth, the Gemini is an ultra economy scale and must be verified against a reloading check weight set (not the calibration weight). If you don't have check weights, you should really get some first...scrap pieces of paper prove nothing.
Although I posted my experience with a Gemini 20 it was not meant to be an endorsement. I would be more inclined to recommend a Jennings Mack 20 over the Gemini. I also have a Gem Pro 250 which is another story. YMMV
 
Before anyone goes and orders a Gemini 20 (based on my earlier post) there's a couple of things to be aware of....
First, the pan is very small. It will barely hold 25 gn of Varget.
Second, a RCBS aluminum powder pan will not fit on the Gemini's load cell.
Third, the auto-off feature is short (about a min.) and there's no disabling it.
Fourth, there is no leveling mechanism as with most 0.02 gn scales.
Fifth, it's battery operated only...no option for a wall wart, however battery longevity is good.
Sixth, the Gemini is an ultra economy scale and must be verified against a reloading check weight set (not the calibration weight). If you don't have check weights, you should really get some first...scrap pieces of paper prove nothing.
Although I posted my experience with a Gemini 20 it was not meant to be an endorsement. I would be more inclined to recommend a Jennings Mack 20 over the Gemini. I also have a Gem Pro 250 which is another story. YMMV
I agree and the only reason I bought a Gemini 20 was pure curiosity. I spent $20 and I buy more than twenty bucks in cider in a week. :)

While the accuracy in a powder measurement is nice to have what most of us want is a high measure of repeatability. Several posters have mentioned that. While the scale is a fun tool many of us have loaded ammunition using a simple volumetric dipper and comparing to published data for different powder densities using the dipper gotten very satisfactory results.

Ron
 
Exactly. For rifles I load by Volume not Weight. The scale is only used to set up the measure (a Belding and Mull). The goal is consistent volume rather than weight...so a variance of half a grain on a 25 gn load doesn't concern me. I have the utmost confidence in B&M's charge tube.
 
Fifth, it's battery operated only...no option for a wall wart, however battery longevity is good.

There are always ways to add external power to a battery powdered device. Among other things, it is matching the correct transformer output to the electrical requirements of the scale.

It is "Ham Radio 101"

I do not like storing electronic gear with the batteries installed. Batteries still leak and ruin the equipment they are installed in.

The Gemini 20 scale was inexpensive enough to play with. I'll just cut back on the adult beverages for a few days.:)
 
So far, various 1/4"x1/4" pieces of paper, whether they are 20 lb copy/printer paper or post-it notes, have ranged from .04 gr to .06 gr on higher resolution (.015 gr - .02 gr) scales on various humidity/temperature conditions.

2 pieces of various paper types have registered around .1 gr on my two Ohaus 10-10 also so I am using the average of .05 gr.

If I am off, someone please verify this for me.

I wonder if cut pieces of aluminum can, either soft drink or adult beverage, might make a usable weight and would definitely be more stable than paper. Cans walls can be cut with a good pair of scissors (please do not use the significant other's sewing shears)

It might be more difficult to get uniform pieces from user to user though.

At least one would get to enjoy the contents before cutting the can up.

On second thought, maybe it is not a good idea. It would just spur a discussion on whether beer cans are heavier than soft drink cans and does that relate to can wall thickness and can internal volume. :)
 
It is fairly common in some paper mills to use a small piece of lead as a check weight. You can cut the tip off a bullet and any scrap lead laying around and use it as a standard. It will not be affected by moisture or changes in temperature. The actual weight is not so important so long as it is close to the weighing range you normally see. The important part is that it will weigh the same every time you use it unless the scale has a problem
 
So now we are only checking the ability of a scale to repeat and little else. Something I brought up way back in post # 53.

But then I guess I don't know what I'm doing.
 
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