Dilema - Need help convincing a friend from making a potential firearm mistake

[anothernewb]

Some of what I'm about to say is going to sound totally redneck/ghetto trash - but it is, unfortunately - a part of real life for my friend.

Okay here's the background - Good friend of mine has a POS parent that's lost their legal right to have firearms. My friend wears his heart on his sleeve, and is sometimes just too friggin good natured for his own good. He's way way too trusting sometimes.

Anyway, my friend bought a new deer hunting rifle this year, and word got back to the parent about it.

The parent's current "GF" (use the term lightly) calls up my buddy and starts chatting him up about going deer hunting this fall, but doesn't have the money to get her own gun, but really really wants to go and try it all on her own - you've all heard similar speeches. And he's basically saying OK, sure you can have one of my guns.

The GF is not a woodsy girl and has no interest in firearms - this is all coming from the deadbeat parent. The reality of the situation, is the GF will grab the gun from my buddy, and promptly hand it over to the parent. The parent has a massive drug/alcohol problem, and a history of threatening and injuring people - sometimes with weapons. Thus the reason for loosing their right to own a firearm.

The parent in question will no doubt go deer hunting like suggested - but will also be doing so with a full case of beer (Or more than one - that's what the GF is for - to get more beer) and probably a few other things along as well. He WILL get picked up/arrested - he always does, he's a violent drunk- and my buddies rifle will be in the parent's possession when it happens. (Hopefully it won't be because he's threatening the GF with it.)

I'm trying to find a logical argument to help dissuade him from this course of action. At best - it seems like he may lose his rifle, at worst - could he lose his firearm rights for giving a known felon a firearm?

Or is he clear since he would be giving the firearm to the GF who is legal to own them?

 

[zxcvbob]

Blackpowder gun? AFAIK, felons can still have muzzleloaders, and they get to hunt the early season that way.

(throw GF a curveball)

 

[Sam1911]

Could he lose his firearms rights? Well...that might be a stretch. Giving a firearm to someone else who can lawfully possess it certainly creates a buffer between you and "knowingly" transferring it to a prohibited person. However, that's far to thin a buffer for comfort in this case.

In the end, you can't make your pal's decision for him. You can simply express your opinion that he's a stupid fool for even considering it.

The best bet to ease feelings would be to say, "well, I don't lend guns away, but I'd be happy to take you hunting and you can use one when we're in the field..." In other words, call her bluff.

Sort of like telling the panhandler you'll buy him a sandwich, but won't give him money.

 

[HRnightmare]

I'm had to be rude but I think the logical argument is "Are you stupid?" With a string of profanities before, during and after that sentence.

At best your friend is going to lose his gun...I am wondering what the potential liability will be if "parent" shoots himself or someone else with this gun that "OP" gave to the gf, knowing full well that it would end up in "parents" hands. That depends on the state he is in.

The "friend" better also start saving up bail money to help "parent" out of jail.

Again, not trying to be rude but if your friend doesn't see the risk in this and is going along with it he is being an idiot and it will eventually come back to bite him in the butt. Does he provide the alcoholic drug addicted parent money for "rent" too?

Could he lose his firearms rights? Well...that might be a stretch. Giving a firearm to someone else who can lawfully possess it certainly creates a buffer between you and "knowingly" transferring it to a prohibited person. However, that's far to thin a buffer for comfort in this case.

GF lives with "parent", GF has a history of allowing parent to make bad decisions and aiding them in doing so. Parents is known to make threats, drugs / alcohol and threats with a firearm. OP gives gun to GF.

I would NOT want to be judged by a jury of my peers as a good civil lawyer of the victim or victim's family makes the case that OP knew OR SHOULD HAVE known that the firearm was being left within access to the parent.

 

[1911 guy]

Tell him exactly what you've told us.

As far as the technicality of who he gives the rifle to, that will only matter if the parent and girlfriend back up his story about giving it to her. Other wise, it is simply his rifle in the possession of a felon. And yes, he could lose his own right to own for providing firearms to a known felon.

Every family has "one of those" people. It just happens to be your friends dad. In my family, it's my own sister. Part of growing up is knowing when to say "go jump in a lake".

 

[ford8nr]

Tell him to offer to take the girlfriend hunting with him. That'll force her hand.

 

[anothernewb]

I've actually tried all the suggestions so far - and a few others. With a profanity laced string of "are you stupid' being the very first one used, lol.

I feel sad for him. I see no way that this is not going to come back and bite him hard.
Hoping that it sinks in between now and a few weeks from now, is about all I can hope for.

 

[HRnightmare]

I hear you. I am fortunate enough to be friends with many LEO's and sometimes have had a LEO friend tell another friend the possible ramifications of a bad decision....MAYBE if you know any LEO's???

OR you could tell him to go the other direction to avoid confrontation... "The rifle wouldn't fire so it had to be sent back to the manufacturer!"

 

[hso]

If his father has lost his firearms rights because he is a felon he shouldn't allow the gun in his father's house since he knows it would be breaking the law (much less putting the firearm in the hands of a dangerous and irresponsible person with anger control problems).

If the GF lives with the felon he'd be knowingly introducing it into the house by proxy.

If the GF doesn't live with his father and he suspects the GF will provide the rifle to his father he's still not safe to assume he wouldn't have any responsibility.

The best course of action is to say "No" because his father isn't legally supposed to be around firearms. If he doesn't have the courage to do that he can offer to take her hunting since they both know his dad can't be around guns.

 

[NGIB]

Even allowing a felon access to a weapon (having one in a shared home) is enough for said felon to be arrested and prosecuted. The cops will then find out how said weapon appeared in the shared home.

Not something I'd be a part of...

 

[Frank Ettin]

The Federal Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit (Pennsylvania) let stand an indictment for aiding and abetting the unlawful possession of a gun by a prohibited persons in a situation in which a gun owner had a cohabitant who was a prohibited person. The point in that case, United States v. Huet, 665 F.3d 588 (3rd Cir., 2012), was that the gun the prohibited person was charged with possessing was not secured against the prohibited person's access, supporting both the prohibited person's conviction for unlawful possession of a gun and the indictment of his cohabitant. From the opinion (at pg. 593, emphasis added):

...on June 6, 2008, a valid search warrant (the “search warrant”) was executed on the couple‟s Clarion County home. Agents seized an SKS, Interordnance M59/66 rifle (“SKS rifle”) from an upstairs bedroom.

Although Huet is legally permitted to possess a firearm, Hall was convicted in 1999 of possessing an unregistered firearm, in violation of 26 U.S.C. § 5861(d), and is therefore prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm. After being informed of the raid, Huet allegedly told investigators that the guns in the house belonged to her and that it was not illegal for her to purchase weapons. Despite Huet‟s assertions that she alone possessed the SKS rifle, the Government sought and obtained an indictment charging Hall with illegal possession of the weapon, and Huet with aiding and abetting Hall‟s possession....

I could see a federal prosecutor making an aiding and abetting charge stick if the OP's friend loaned the rifle to the GF when he had reasonable cause to believe that the prohibited father would have access to it.

Helping a prohibited person have access to a gun is not a joke and can have serious repercussions.

 

[HRnightmare]

If the GF lives with the felon he'd be knowingly introducing it into the house by proxy.

I think this may be a state law rather than a Federal one. There was a case here locally where a convicted felon shot a home intruder. The Police did not charge him because the firearm was owned by the girlfriend and kept in her home. He lived there BUT was not on a lease or mortgage / title. An intruder startedkicking in the door and she told him were the gun was and decided to go find her child rather than use the gun to defend.

I suppose the cops could have charged him if they wanted to. It is probably just them allowing the trash to take out the trash...now they have 1 less bag of dirt to contend with.

 

[Frank Ettin]

HR, I think you drew the wrong conclusion. See my discussion of Huet, above. That guy probably got his pass because he had brief possession of the gun only as needed for legitimate self defense. The legal doctrine of necessity will often excuse an otherwise criminal act.

 

[Hypnogator]

I've actually tried all the suggestions so far - and a few others. With a profanity laced string of "are you stupid' being the very first one used, lol.

Then butt out. I learned a long time ago that it's no use trying to save people from themselves.

 

[Bang!]

Tell'em the truth, "No, I won't loan you a firearm and become responsible for your actions". Continue being a softie and they will continue to 'use you'. Be truthful and act responsibly. Let people know where you stand.

 

[JTHunter]

Anothernewb - I have just one word for your "friend",
DON'T!!

The others have given you all the reasons but your "friend" will have to make his own decisions and live with the consequences.

 

[anothernewb]

Well, sadly - he's going to lend the rifle out -
but I've managed to convince him to only lend the rifle out the morning she is planning on going, and getting it back that night.

Gauging on the parent's past history - there's a bout a 50/50 chance he won't be arrested during this hunting trip.

All I can do, I told my buddy just to not tell me anything more of the situation. I want no further involvement.

 

[Schutzen]

Two things,

1) Tell your buddy to start saving up for bail money, his bail money. If Papa gets picked up it is an odds on bet Junior will get a trip to the cross bar hotel for providing a weapon to a known felon. This should be very easy for a prosecutor to prove. Check the GF for her hunting license and Hunter Safety Card. I'll bet she does not have them and that will be a defacto proof the gun was for Papa.

2) You need start saving your money. When your buddy gets arrested and convicted, several guns will be for sale cheap.

Stupid is as stupid does. You just cannot help some people.

 

[TomJ]

It sounds like it's a question of when, not if the police get involved. At that point your friend is facing all types of legal issues and possible jail time. Counting on the GF to stick to the story she's giving you is not a gamble your friend should take, as she most likely will do what's in her best interest once the police are involved. If he doesn't want to say no, I'd come up with some other excuse, as other posters recommended. Your friend should keep in mind that the police and prosecutors have most likely heard every story he or the GF could come up with.

You mentioned your friend has a good heart. You may want to point out to him that if this person injures or kills someone with the rifle, that's he's going to bear responsibility, having provided the gun. Have him think about how he'll feel when some innocent person gets injured or killed because he didn't want to say no.

 

[Bob M.]

Yes, There's great potential for somebody getting killed in this situation. That's the first thing I would think of and thus would never let this happen.

 

[chazwood]

This sort of thing is what leads to more gun laws affecting everyone. I live in Australia and you don't loan you're gun period, the only time someone else uses it is if you are with them.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

Tell your buddy to give you all of his money so that you can bail him out when he gets arrested. People act more rationally when $$ is involved.

 

[JRWhit]

The GF is not a woodsy girl and has no interest in firearms - this is all coming from the deadbeat parent.

. So... Bad parent aside, he is going to send an inexperienced person who has never hunted and presumedly never fired a gun out into the the woods alone with one of his. Isn't that just about as bad as handing it to a felon? Or at least as irresponsible?

 

[TomJ]

Some of what I'm about to say is going to sound totally redneck/ghetto trash - but it is, unfortunately - a part of real life for my friend.

Okay here's the background - Good friend of mine has a POS parent that's lost their legal right to have firearms. My friend wears his heart on his sleeve, and is sometimes just too friggin good natured for his own good. He's way way too trusting sometimes.

Anyway, my friend bought a new deer hunting rifle this year, and word got back to the parent about it.

The parent's current "GF" (use the term lightly) calls up my buddy and starts chatting him up about going deer hunting this fall, but doesn't have the money to get her own gun, but really really wants to go and try it all on her own - you've all heard similar speeches. And he's basically saying OK, sure you can have one of my guns.

The GF is not a woodsy girl and has no interest in firearms - this is all coming from the deadbeat parent. The reality of the situation, is the GF will grab the gun from my buddy, and promptly hand it over to the parent. The parent has a massive drug/alcohol problem, and a history of threatening and injuring people - sometimes with weapons. Thus the reason for loosing their right to own a firearm.

The parent in question will no doubt go deer hunting like suggested - but will also be doing so with a full case of beer (Or more than one - that's what the GF is for - to get more beer) and probably a few other things along as well. He WILL get picked up/arrested - he always does, he's a violent drunk- and my buddies rifle will be in the parent's possession when it happens. (Hopefully it won't be because he's threatening the GF with it.)

I'm trying to find a logical argument to help dissuade him from this course of action. At best - it seems like he may lose his rifle, at worst - could he lose his firearm rights for giving a known felon a firearm?

Or is he clear since he would be giving the firearm to the GF who is legal to own them?

Forget the logical argument. Your friend is giving a firearm to a violent drunk who has injured people in the past. Like it or not, you know about this. If your friend doesn't care about his own legal and civil liabilities, he and you should care about the people who this drunk may injure. Call your friend, explain your concerns and that you're looking out for his welfare, and let him know that if he gives the GF the rifle you're going to notify the police. Then do it if he goes ahead with this. I understand that this goes against the "guy code" of not turning in your friends, but from what you're saying, the odds are good that this drunk may injure or kill someone, and from where I stand avoiding the possible death of an innocent person trumps any loyalty you feel towards your friend. Your friend does not have the right to put others in harms way, and like it or not, you're involved. This is not a game. Think about how you'll feel if someone is harmed and you didn't do enough to stop it, especially if it's some child. Sometimes the only choices we have are bad ones, and we need to pick the best out of those bad choices. I hope you and your friend do the right thing.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Sorry, but if your friend is so stupid to put any of his firearms within arms reach of a "violent drunk" ...

.... you need to find some smarter friends.