Dishonest reloading manuals

[Superlite27]

As a preface: I bought some Buffalo Bore .45 LC 325gr. LFN when I bought my Ruger Vaquero (old model) the other day. When I got home, I noticed I had purchased +P loads. After checking the safety of shooting +P in my Vaquero, I did so only to find that IT REALLY HURTS MY HAND.

So I went back to the shop to buy some ammo with a little more sanity. They didn't have any (go figure) but they did have reloading dies, shell holder, .452 LRN bullets, etc. So I purchased them instead.

So I get home, set up the dies to seat and crimp correctly, and get to loading.

I loaded a variety of bullets according to the manual using starting loads just to get a feel for the rounds. I then went outside and shot them.......

...where I was sadly disappointed.

I was using three different powders, Unique, Bullseye, and Clays. Both the Bullseye, and Unique were O.K., but just felt weak. The Clays?

....pop.

I thought it was a squib, so I pulled the cylinder and checked the bore even though I put a hole in the target. (It was that weak sounding).

I went downstairs and loaded some more using the "MAX LOAD" data. (The data in my old Hogdon book AND my new one are the same)) This time, I dug out the chronograph.

Hogdon book: 5.9 gr. Clays (max load) 200gr. LFN = 931fps 13,100 cup
I loaded: 6.3 gr. Clays (OVER max load) 200gr. LFN = GET THIS 642fps.

Was I afraid of going over the designated max load? No. My Hornady book lists 9.3 gr. as a max load. Not to mention I have just put several Buffalo Bore +P rounds through the thing that felt like holding a stick of dynamite as it went off. 6.3gr. of Clays felt like a breath of fresh air out of the barrel. Yet it is considered over the max load according to my Hogdon book.

I then went along with my Hornady book.

Hornady book: 8.9gr. Clays (9.3 max) 200gr. SWC (not LFN but still 200gr.) 1050fps.
I loaded: 8.9gr Clays (WAY WAY OVER the Hogdon book) 200gr. LFN = 1028fps. PRETTY CLOSE!

This load is still WAY under the Buffalo Bore +P arm breakers that I put through this morning (I chronographed them at around 1450 fps.) but it feels fine to shoot.

What's with the 5.9gr. max listed in the Hogdon book? Why does it list 5.9 as a max with 931fps as a baseline velocity when it NOWHERE near that? Were they using a .45 LC rifle to measure the velocity? The longer barrel would probably increase the velocity, but isn't a standard length six-gun a general way to get a relative velocity? After all, I wasn't using a snubbie.

I'm sticking with my Hornady book. I like the Lyman manuals, but they didn't contain info on Clays. I'm going to staple the Hogdon book to my target holder. It seems to be the only thing it's good for.

I like Unique for .45 ACP, so I don't want to burn it up while trying to find a good load for .45LC. Most likely, I'll continue to use the Clays in order to burn it up. I'm not that impressed with it.

Especially since it comes from Hogdon....the liars.

 

[rcmodel]

You will find most load data in .45 Colt to be SAAMI spec, 14,000 PSI or less loads, that are safe in 100 year old Colt SAA's, and 10 year old Italian replicas.

They are not +P, nor are they intended to be.

Usually in another chapter, you will find "Ruger Only" .45 Colt loads that will knock your socks off if that's what you want.

In between are the "real" .45 Colt loads that six-gunners have used for years. That would be something like 8.5 - 9.0 Unique and a 255 grain Keith SWC. Plently of power for deer hunting, mild recoil, and a MV just about the same as the old Black Powder load that made the .45 Colt famous. Or close to 1,000 FPS out of a 7 1/2" barrel.

BTW: Lyman #49 shows 6.3 Clays with a 200 grain LSWC as giving 985 @ 12,200 CUP in a 7 1/2" barrel.

But if you want near Magnum performance out of a .45 Colt, Clays is not the powder to use. It is too fast, and pressure can spike unexpectaly in that big old Colt case.

Hogdon....the liars.

Unless you shot your loads in a 7 1/2" pressure test barrel like they did, I wouldn't call them liers.
That's pretty harsh words for you not having any pressure data to back it up!

rc

 

[Randy1911]

They may be considering that max load to be safe if you have one of the old blackpowder guns.

I went to my loading manuals and none of the listed Clays as a possible choice. But they all listed Unique. On average the starting load was 8.5 and the MAX was 9.5 for a little over 1000 fps. You might want to try a diffrent powder. Back when I shoot CAS, my favorite load was a 200 LRNFP with 5.8 grs. of W231 for around 650 fps. Nice and mild.

 

[Superlite27]

That's pretty harsh words for you not having any pressure data to back it up!

True. I was just amazed at the wimpy little "pop", and really low velocity at their "max" load. 642fps? That's like 300fps less than what is listed. Maybe you can tell me, because I'm not sure, but will 2 inches of barrel have that much difference (300fps)in velocity?

I'm not looking for hot loads (If I wanted hot, I'd keep shooting the Buffalo Bore), but I do want something that feels like I'm firing a gun instead of watering flowers.

I think I'll stick with 8.9gr. of Clays until it's gone then switch to Unique.

BTW: Thanks for the info on loads. I'm always learning, and any info that helps is always appreciated.

 

[rcmodel]

I suppose it's possible that the small charge of Clays got lost in that big .45 Colt case, and the primer flashed over it failing to get a complete burn. (Position Sensitivity?)

That's why I don't use anything but a fairly healthy dose of Unique in mine.
As I said, 8.5 - 9.0 grains & a 250 - 255 grain LSWC has been the go-to .45 Colt load longer then I've been shooting.
And I begin shooting when Harry Truman was still president.

John F. Kennedy was president when I started reloading.

rc

 

[Floppy_D]

Wow, rcmodel, was it hard to get blacksmiths to make your reloading dies back then?

 

[rcmodel]

No.
George Leonard Herter & his little Minnesota elves were busily making more Model Perfect dies then I could afford at the time!

rc

 

[Borg]

You have an 'Old Model" Vaquero?
Didn't know they made them back in the '70's
Borg

 

[Ol` Joe]

True. I was just amazed at the wimpy little "pop", and really low velocity at their "max" load. 642fps? That's like 300fps less than what is listed. Maybe you can tell me, because I'm not sure, but will 2 inches of barrel have that much difference (300fps)in velocity?

I'm not looking for hot loads (If I wanted hot, I'd keep shooting the Buffalo Bore), but I do want something that feels like I'm firing a gun instead of watering flowers.

I think I'll stick with 8.9gr. of Clays until it's gone then switch to Unique

The 2" of barrel won`t give you 300 fps less velocity but add in the difference in bore dimentions, cylinder gap that is missing in a pressure barrel, chamber size, throat geometry, and you can find variation like that more often then one would think.
Recoil is definatly not a way to judge pressures. You can have an extreemly high pressure load with a light bullet wgt that recoils mildly when compared to a warm heavy bullet load. Recoil is a result of mass and velocity. Pressure is another thing altogether.
The +p loads are high pressure loads not nesaccarily higher velocity. The Clays load you are useing could be well above the pressures of the Buffalo bore ammo. Use a slower powder if you want high vel and leave the faster stuff for target/plinking loads.

 

[Mike Wood]

Clays too fast for hot loads

Clays would not be a powder you'd want to use if you're trying to load for velocity. You mentioned you wanted a load that feels like you're "firing a gun" instead of "watering flowers". I shoot IDPA and we try all kinds of powders to find the fasted, softest, cleanest shooting loads. Clays is the softest powder I've tested yet and I've tested a lot- yes it is even softer than the overpriced Vihta Viouri (which I use too) but not as clean.

You need something slower like the (dirty) Unique you were using. Fast powders run out of gas early and barrel length can make a significant difference. It was also mentioned & I agree that you'd be better served in trying to find a powder that fills the case better. Clays is not what you should be using for your application. Look on a powder burn chart and you'll see that Clays & Bullseye are way at the top in burn rate. You need something down the list further that won't be all done 3/4 the way through your barrel.

Hodgdon has lowered their maximum loads for Clays over the years and I cannot get a reply as to why. This does not impress me. They make wonderful powders but no response to such a potentially important question is not conductive to good customer relations IMO.
Even to get my "flower watering" loads to pass power factor I have to load over max with some calibers. I've found no signs of pressure but it would be nice to get an answer to my question. Perhaps I'll try a phone call rather than email through their web site.
MW

 

[Gewehr98]

I wouldn't call them "liars", either.

Load data over the years has been reduced considerably, regardless of who publishes it.

I've got many reloading manuals that stretch 30 or more years in coverage, and you can definitely tell the trend is there.

I attribute it to liability concerns.

Y'all can call it whatever you want.

 

[D. Manley]

If I were going to push the limits, Clays would be the very last powder I'd do it with. I shoot a lot of Clays in .45 and like it a lot but, Clays demands respect. It is widely known to spike suddenly and without warning...just because it "feels" so light can be very misleading. IMHO, if you are looking to get the velocity up, go to a slower powder than Clays and equally important, one with a more linear pressure curve.

 

[33rowdy]

I don't know the "most" about pistols and their loads. But I will say that Hodgdon and Lyman load data is "my" last reference to look. The bullet maker's data is what truly believe in. Cast bullets is another can of worms though.

 

[Eaglecreekbrewer]

Several things to consider, especially with the 45 colt.
First, most manuals will not max out lead loads on pressure, but instead velocities, in an attempt to eliminate leading.
What dia are your bullets, lead should be sized at or .001 over your throat size, if they are smaller, you will lose fps.
Clays, a very touchy powder that is known to spike suddenly, so I would expect them to stay away from that point and call it good.
The 45 Colt is known for having oversized throats, measure your throats, if they are larger than .452 and the gun is new, send it back and have them fix it. Also your cylinder gap plays a big roll in velocities. If you gap is toward the max and the test gun was at the min. you will see some difference.
Barrel length difference between test gun and yours will cause some discrepancies.
Now, if you stack some of these issues up, could be possible.

 

[jerkface11]

If you want to know you're shooting something use H110

 

[Sport45]

Which of the "Clays" powders are you using? If you grabbed the wrong one, (Universal, for instance), you wouldn't be the first.

There's Clays, Universal Clays, and International Clays. All of them say "Clays" on the can.

 

[bobotech]

I also was going to suggest H110. A load of H110 WILL get your notice.

This is me shooting some hot loads out of a Ruger Vaquero Birdshead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyaGQvODMwI

 

[rockhound758]

Cool video, Bobo! Especially the one flash that had the "lightning" effects in it! Those look like fun loads!

 

[bobotech]

Thanks!

 

[woodsoup]

Hint, 5.9 vs 9.5. Me thinks we have a TYPO on our hands.

 

[Sport45]

I wouldn't recommend 9.5 grains of Clays if that's what you are suggesting. That would be an overload under any bullet in .45C.

5.9 grains of Universal Clays under a 200gr lead bullet would be a pretty weak load. 5.9gr of Clays should be a decent charge under the same bullet.

 

[AgentOrange]

i posted this in another thread on the site

"ok gents,

i just spent the better part of an hour n the phone with rugers newport,new hampshire office. i spoke to two different people in length about the new model vaquero 45LC. (cant remeber the guys name, but the lady i spoke to was named tina), and BOTH of them told me that the new model ruger vaquero will handle EVERYTHING ON THE MARKET LOADWISE,INCLUDING ALL +P AND +P+ LOADINGS,AND BUFFALO BORES LOADINGS..

they did mention that they do not recommend shooting reloads in there guns, BUT on that note, if the new mode vaquero will handle +P+ ammo, i wouldnt think anyone would be reloading over that unless there either asking for punishment or looking to intentionally blow the gun up in there face. i also asked them about the ruger only loads, and they told me again that they dont advocate the use of any reloads in there guns, BUT ANY LOADING that is at or below the industry standard for +P+ ammunition wouldn't effect the gun""


now.....i do relize that what your shooting is an "old model" vaquero, but i thought the info was interesting, and had to post it. i did a ton of research online before i bought my new model vaquero 5 1/2" 45 colt. what i found on virtually every single site i checked is the consensus is not to shoot anything with anymore power than a cowboy load thru your 45 colt NM vaquero. thats BS. when i present the question "why" to most of these guys i get "well, the NM vaquero is smaller than the old model vaquero, meaning less meat, meaning that the gun cant handle the hotter loads.".....no REAL technical data to present, no proof of any new model vaquero 45lc going kaboom with hotter loads, no nothing but quotings from manuals and things that they had been tld by so-in-so or that they heard from whats-his-name. i took the time to call the ruger factory and get the real skinny from the actual manufacture. im sure they ,above everyone else on the internet wouold know what there product can handle, whats safe and what isnt. i mean heck, i REALLY dont think that the manufacture above all is going to give someone false info on a firearm of all things as the wrong info,especially in that area could be asking for one HUGE lawsuit if the gun blows up. most guns manufactured, (even junk guns) are pretty much constructed to handle proof power loads . thats not to say you should shoot that sort of powerful load out of your gun, but guns in general can handle quite a bit over high end published loads. if they couldnt the first time boby boo-boo double charged a case without noting it and shot it, it would be all over.


my point would be this.as i stated previously, not to say that most guys dont know what there talking about,cause some do, but some dont. i learned a long time ago that if i had any questions as far as what a gun could handle load wise to call the manufacture and as them. if the person you reach doesnt know, make them find someone who does instead of following something joe blow heard from john doe that said that bill smith had heard from his neigbor......lol

 

[rcmodel]

Well Buffalo Bore posts this warning for their +P ammo:

These Heavy .45 Colt +P loads are safe in all LARGE FRAME Ruger revolvers.
(includes Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, all pre-2005 Vaquero, Bisley, Redhawk)

These Heavy .45 Colt +P loads are NOT intended for the New Model Vaquero (small frame).

Boy! What a bunch of Ignorant Know-Nothing Dummies at Buffalo Bore!

rc

 

[counterclockwise]

Wandering around in Manual Land....

.
Some manuals list subsonic loads for pistols. They assume that you recognize that when you see the muzzle velocity posted for that recipe at <1000 fps. Jacketed bullets for pistols will usually not be found in subsonic section because of the fear of squibs. Supersonic lead bullet loads without gas checks will not be found in some manuals due to fear of heavy barrel leading. Other manuals segregate all that data with proper liner and foot notes.

I have one of the blackhawk frame .44 magnum vaqueros. I was always under the impression that the reduced frame size of the new vaqueros would not support the full house 44 mag pressures. And, that was the reason Ruger did not offer that caliber in the "new" vaquero line.

 

[V45C]

5.8 of TB with a 255 rnfp is a nice sedate loading for all day use...