Disturbing New York City trend.

[Prince Yamato]

NYC really is not a city, it is an open air prison. The prison guards are on every street corner ready to tell you to move along if you stand in one place too long and in every subway ready to search your bags on a whim. That is disgusting enough for me to never set foot in that forsaken place again. Take too many pictures with a nice camera and they'll demand to see your "permit". The warden demands you kowtow to him and remain unarmed, you peasant -- don't forget your place.

What are you talking about? That's certainly not the NYC I know. It's a beautiful city. As I said, firearms laws aside it's a pretty sweet place.

The Ethiopian food at 3am was an example. It didn't have to even be Ethiopian, but some of you couldn't catch my drift. Fine, live rurally, but don't take a crap on people who like living in urban areas and also want 2A rights. The, "move out of [major city du jour]" line is old. It also presumes that you can run from every problem. If you're like me and enjoy the arts (or work in them as I do) and have a semblance of culture, living in a major city provides a host of opportunities you and I can't find in rural Idaho. If I can carry a pistol on a farm, I should be able to carry it into the Met (not on stage obviously) but you get the drift. Why give up on NYC? You can, at the bare minimum still own guns there. It's not a hopeless cause.

 

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by Elm Creek Smith: Cowardly Confederates, Tecumseh? I doubt that the boys in blue considered them cowards. You may not like the side they were on, but they were hardly cowards.

[...and their bigoted descendants think?]

This comment is not exactly "The High Road," is it?

I am the descendant of Confederates, Tecumseh. My grandfather, also the descendant of Confederates, served the United States as a machinegun company commander in the Great War. My father, the descendant of Confederates, flew B-17s and B-29s in The Second World War. My brother, the descendant of Confederates, served in the Air Force during Vietnam with nearly 200 missions. I, the descendant of Confederates served 20 years in the United States Army.

While my grandfather and father were products of their time, they considered the KKK cowardly thugs. My grandfather died years before I was born, but my father taught us that the only way to judge a man was by his actions. You might try that instead of casting aspersions at someone you don't know.

ECS

I see a lot of bigotry towards people from California, Illinois, and NYC. I dont see what the difference is. I only look at another post here and it assumes that people who attend these shows are pimps, gangstas, and whores.

I am sorry but I took offense to the tone of posting. Simply put that I am some sort of immoral person for for being ok with things that are disapproved of in some states makes me angry.

 

[ConfuseUs]

It also presumes that you can run from every problem.

You can solve some of your problems, like a hostile social environment, by running from them. That is essentially what America is all about if you think about it.

If you're like me and enjoy the arts (or work in them as I do) and have a semblance of culture, living in a major city provides a host of opportunities you and I can't find in rural Idaho. If I can carry a pistol on a farm, I should be able to carry it into the Met (not on stage obviously) but you get the drift. Why give up on NYC? You can, at the bare minimum still own guns there. It's not a hopeless cause

There are other major cities in the U.S. with large arts and cultural scenes although they may not be as large as that in NYC. Assuming that the contrast between rural Idaho and NYC applies to all other locations outside NYC is provincial thinking at best. I live in a metropolitan area where there are many cultural attractions, many different ethnic cuisines, and the only gun license scheme is the license to CCW.

And Ethiopians make a mean steak. The rest of their food looks like it came from another planet.

 

[Mannix]

Some people like the hustle and bustle of the city, some like the quiet and slower pace of life that comes with living in a more rural area.

I personally prefer the latter.

By all means stay in NYC if you like it there, but I can barely stand the mini apple, so I'm pretty sure the big one would drive me nuts.

I'm not someone who wants to go live in a log cabin a 100 miles away from anyone, I just want to get as far away from the city as I can without losing access to my high speed internet .

 

[jpk1md]

Prince Yamato. I grew up North of NYC, commuted to the city for many years in my 20's and while there ARE fun things to do there is no disputing that NYC is a filthy dirty hole with a ton of pollution, a VERY corrupt PD, WAY too many people and not just that...people in NY will just walk past someone in trouble and turn the other way more often than not.

Now we have the random searches to get on the Subway?!?! What the F?!?

Are there nice/fun things to visit? Sure, Central Park (daylight only), Museums and Art, Electronics and other shopping and there is definately a lot of good food.....Arthur Ave etc etc...

I'll chalk NY up to a fun place to visit once in a blue moonn but there isn't a chance in heck that I'll ever live in the immediate NYC area ever again....in fact I hate visiting family in the area due to the above issues.

WRT 2A....the only way that NYC is going to become MORE free on this issue is due to downward pressure from Upstate NY where there is still a little sanity. Once you start seeing a real increase in CCW in Westchester and Putnam Co's then there will be more pressure on NYC to cave.....

But as others have noted the problem is the Citizens that keep electing bliss ninnies that think their job is to create more laws that further regulate your personal freedoms and choices.....until that changes there will be no real change in NY and frankly I chalk NY up as a lost cause.....nothing short of a massive natural disaster (aka Katrina) is going to change people's minds in NY and start waking them up to reality.

 

[Turkey Creek]

If you're like me

I'm not

and enjoy the arts

I'd rather go shooting or to a ball game or go fishing

and have a semblance of culture,

There's that attitude again of urbanites to look down their noses at others not like them

living in a major city provides a host of opportunities you and I can't find in rural Idaho.

The opposite is just as valid

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Firearms laws aside, why would you NOT want to live in NYC?

I hate cities, masses of people, noise, pollution, etc. I'm going to be moving to the bush in Alaska in the future, Vermont is too crowded for my tastes...

I like classical music, antiques, art (older art not modern stuff) and the like, but I'm perfectly content with a good collection of recordings (the best musicians recorded on 78's!), the antiques I already have, and books and prints and such. I have no need for cities and what they have. And a large part of what they bring is socialism and restrictions on everything, guns being the best example, but there are others, like how you can build your house, how you must maintain your yard, etc. This country needs a bigger serving of freedom, and cities result in the opposite. I suspect Jefferson understood this happens when he argued in favor of people living in rural areas, instead of cities...cities just seem to breed bigger government.

 

[glummer]

Maybe not so much

Why are New Yorkers so reluctant about protecting themselves

Perhaps they are not so reluctant as you think. There was a reference a few years back, on the Web site of the NY Senate Repub Majority, to a NY State Police estimate of 2,000,000 illegal firearms in NYC. If that is at all accurate (I have not been able to verify the quote), it implies that an enormous number of NYC residents are illegally "keeping arms" for non-criminal purposes. I would have to presume that self-defense was the primary use.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Disturbing New York City trend.
I read in the NY Post yesterday that only 36,000 New Yorkers are licensed to own firearms........out of a city of 8 MILLION people.

First of all, what trend you are talking about? You cited static numbers. You said there was a trend. That means there is a change over time. My understanding was that the number of CCW holders was actually increasing. That would be a trend.

What is going on? Why are New Yorkers so reluctant about protecting themselves. What is the reason somebody would be afraid of a gun in the hands of a law abiding person?

Here is where I ask why you believe (along with so many gun owners) that the definition of being able to defend yourselves somehow must include having a concealed carry permit or have firearms at home? Strangely along the same lines, my daughters' karate instructor does not understand why so few people know karate.

By the way, is Ron Paul still in the race???
I have been away from THR so long in the past few weeks, I think I missed out on some current issues.

I would also like to know about all Republican contenders who strongly support the 2A. Activism needs high-octane gasoline.

Have you just been away from THR, or have you been hiding under a rock? Is THR your only source of news? Do you know how to use the search function on THR? Are you familiar with GOOGLE?

 

[Prince Yamato]

There's that attitude again of urbanites to look down their noses at others not like them

No, that's the attitude of someone who knows that in order to get traditional non-gun people to like guns (or just accept them) you have to be able to discuss more than the stereotypical "huntin', fishin', and NASCAR ". I'm also not saying that it's horrible to live in the country. That's a personal choice. But my issue is that people seem to think we should just run from our problems and move out into the woods like a bunch of recluses or the Unibomber. I think if more of us moved into urban areas or at least made headway into them, it would go a long way in helping RKBA.

 

[ilcylic]

Firearms laws aside, why would you NOT want to live in NYC?

I don't like crowds. I like being able to get out of town on a major free way in any of the four cardinal directions in 15 minutes on a bad traffic day. I like having a real live house, with a yard, that didn't cost both arms and one leg, as opposed to barely being able to afford a shoebox apartment. I like the occasional moment of silence. I like being able to see the stars, and I mean really see them.

I've been to NYC more than a few times. There's a lot of neat stuff there, and, indeed, there's some great food to be had. I'll admit some measure of sadness that there's no Ethiopian to be had within 400 miles, let alone at 3am. But that said, I'm always happiest with NYC when I'm leaving. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be happy with it, and it doesn't mean we shouldn't all still be fighting to make it a better place, politically.

*shrug*

You did ask why.

 

[ilcylic]

That is why I prefer NATIONALIZATION.
Abolish "independant" ordinances and install FEDERAL LAW in all areas. That will give criminals who take advantage of cities' gun control laws something to think about.

Whew. Well, I appreciate your strong interest in defending the Second Amendment, and I'm really not aiming to be rude or sound condescending. I'd like to gently suggest you read a bit more history of the founding of the USA, and the reasoning the people who built this place back in 1776 had for a weak federal government. Yes, a strong federal government which would defend firearms rights sounds like a great thing, on the surface, but there are a lot of ways in which it could go ever so wrong in practice.

I read something the other day about the production of "Whitney revolvers" during the War of Northern Aggression.

When the Chinese Communist Party fought against the KMT during the war of 1937-1949, we enforced martial law on everybody who think they can make their own little laws. If something like the Whitney revolver case ever happened during that period, we would have simply took the company by force, court martial the embezzlers and land the ultimate conviction: treason against the State and the Renmin Zhen'fu(People's Government)

I don't think you're going to find many people here on THR who are going to look with much favor on the example set by the Communist Chinese Government. Just a head's up. We tend to be a bit more individualistic around these parts.

Nationalization, the passing of a powerful Federal law, will prevent local and municipal ordinances from thinking that can pass whatever restrictions they like.

Again, while it sounds like a great idea in theory, I always think back to the quote from Gerald Ford:

[Americans] know that a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have.

A strong and powerful federal government is not necessarily a feature.

 

[Prince Yamato]

ilcyclic,

having lived in Albuquerque, I fully understand your point of you. Actually, NM offers much of the same "cosmopolitan" atmosphere that you find in larger cities. There is also a huge arts community there and in neighboring Santa Fe (The Santa Fe Opera is actually an A-level company like the Met). In all seriousness, I often list Albuquerque as one of my favorite cities in the world. You've got: four seasons, a huge arts community, and guns. Would that I be so lucky to move back there. I guess part of what I'm doing here is playing devil's advocate. I see too many people dump on particular regions and declare them "hopeless", so instead of running, I want to see "cultural change". If you can't change the politics, you can change the culture. For instance, if the Pink Pistols open a NYC chapter and enough members of the gay community clamored for CCW, I'd be SHOCKED if NYC liberal politicians wouldn't respond to such a surge in demand.

 

[ilcylic]

I guess I'm of two minds about NYC. Personally I find a large portion of the political atmosphere there abhorrent. And part of me says "well, I should help try to fix it." But then there's the bit that says that if the vast majority of the people there like the way it is... who am I to try to take it away from them? It's not for me, but where I live isn't really for them, either.

Basically, (to tie into my last comment on this thread) it's a great argument for true federalism.

Which still doesn't mean that we shouldn't try and convince them that really, guns are just cool.

 

[Mousegun]

Outterlimit: The wonders of multi-culturalism..

Outerlimit: Can you define multiculturalism? Or do you just mean the fact that there are minorities in the city? Please elaborate.

How about not making it about minorities but people that not only refuse to accept, assimilate, or become at all a part of the culture they chose to move into in any way shape or form, to the point they even try to break down that culture and tear apart the foundation that it is built on in an attempt to try to totally re-establish it as theirs.

 

[gezzer]

This Thread shows why the NYC should be a separate state. The city lovers at this time control what would be a very nice rural State. The rural residents of NY have no say in the state .gov or any in the fed.com due to this unjustifiable imbalance of power.

Separate the state from the city and Both sides will at last be able to control themselves without discrimination of where they live.

Note: It has been very hard staying High Road on this.

 

[sig226]

Almost everyone who can afford 500 bucks and wants a gun can afford to leave and likely already has. FL is full of former NYC residents.

It's not the money that I've noticed, it's the mindset.

Some of the interesting comments by New York City residents made at the gun store:

"Do you really sell these?" (referring to an inventory of 400 rifles, shotguns, and handguns displayed with price tags)

"Anybody that would even touch a gun is sick." (NYPD must have lowered recruiting standards.)

"I could never kill another human being." (Keep Abortion Legal sticker on car)

My favorite:
"I wouldn't even think about buying a gun. I don't have a permit."

I don't know how to change the prevailing attitude in New York City, as well as much of New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachussetts, Illinois, and California. I often think that second amendment rights would best be preserved by ignoring those places and concentrating our efforts in areas where there are significant numbers of people who are undecided, but who can be persuaded to our side.

It is happening, slowly, elsewhere around the country. Police who predicted carnage with the passage of RTC laws have seen the result of the laws and reassessed their opinions. A few columnists in liberal news outlets are looking at the data from criminal and justifiable shootings and admitting they were wrong. A few politicians are also seeing the light.

But the beliefs that guns are inherently evil and guns cause crime are pervasive in places like Boston, New York City, Trenton, Chicago, and Los Angeles. I don't see those attitudes changing any time soon. Maybe, if the entire rest of the country has isolated a few areas as the last places where people are forbidden to protect themselves, the inner city atmosphere will change.

 

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by Sig226: "I could never kill another human being." (Keep Abortion Legal sticker on car)

Thats if you believe a fetus is a legal human being.

Seriously though, it will take a lot of help from the media. As well as breaking many of the stereotypes people have about gunowners. In my experience many gunowners seem to take issue with people that are different or do not have the same belief as them. For example this thread....

I would argue that on both sides of this problem it is ignorance and a lack of knowledge about guns and other people's beliefs that keeps us down.

 

[LightsOut]

Sig226, do you own a gun store in the city? If so, where?

 

[sig226]

Sig226, do you own a gun store in the city? If so, where?

No, I used to work at Ramsey Outdoor in Ramsey. Lots of New Yorkers on their way upstate would stop there. We had loads of Columbia, Carhartt, and Mountain Harwear clothing, as well as camping and fishing gear. They would pass the gun department and the comments would start.

Tecumseh, I have no problem with legal abortion, if only because I can't find anything in the US Constitution that gives government the power to regulate it. Call me a half assed libertarian. I just find it ironic that people are so vocal about the right to choose in one argument and even more vocal about the sanctity of human life when the topic is switched.

 

[no_problem]

<<"How many are exercising civil disobedience?">>

Forget about whether it is legal or not. The .Gov does not like disobiedience of ANY KIND. and they have ways of "assisting" you to comply with their wishes...

"knock knock"

"Hello, I am agent Smith, I'm her about that tax audit, I'm from the government, I'm here to "help""

 

[Scott7891]

Ignorance

Quote:
Here is where I ask why you believe (along with so many gun owners) that the definition of being able to defend yourselves somehow must include having a concealed carry permit or have firearms at home? Strangely along the same lines, my daughters' karate instructor does not understand why so few people know karate.

It is the fact that the gun is the most effective tool for self-defense and sending a message to your attacker that I am not a victim and not to mess with me or I will react. Guns are much easier to use and understand than say spend time, money, and years learning karate. I'm not saying karate is bad, it would be a blessing for more people to know it to defend themselves. The fact of the matter is that most people don't have the time to learn it and have 9-5 jobs who are too tired afterwards to do much especially on weekends when they would rather relax. Karate is not for everyone. You should not ridicule those who don't want to learn it like myself. It is a wonderful fighting technique and I respect my one friend who is a black-belt but it is not my technique for self-defense. I would rather use the sure thing to protect myself which are guns. I know in karate that you use your hands, feet, and any other body part possible as weapon but are you trained to disarm the predator who has a gun? There is two sides to this argument. Lets say your attacker knew karate and you didn't but you had a gun?? Are you saying that person who has the gun is wrong for owning one and should let the person attacking them do it because that person doesn't know karate? Another side to it is what if you do know karate, unarmed, but your attacker has a gun. You think telling him that you know it will scare him off? All he has to do is laugh and pull the trigger and your dead. Even if he manages to miss you, once the attacker fires the first shot, another is already in the chamber (less he uses a pump-action shotgun). We gun owners can say the same thing for those who don't own guns such as why do you lack an effective sure way to defend yourself from harm and ultimately rely on the police (who are by the way not entitled to protect the individual but the community as a whole) to protect you? All we are saying is that the gun is the most effective tool for self-defense in any event that you are to be assaulted by an individual, even if your attacker is armed. It levels the playing field and even tips the balance in favor of the would-be victim if he/she has a gun because a criminal and/or assailant is more afraid of you being armed than even police officers. In the end, all I am saying is don't look down on those who would rather use an effective tool (gun) to defend ourselves rather than sacrifice it because karate is only effective to a point. Not all people who own guns are psychopathic lunatics, that is an extreme small fraction. On the issue of New York, I would agree with AntiqueCollector and Thomas Jefferson that big cities breed big government and more interference in our personal lives. This especially includes the right to bear arms or tools to defend ourselves because the city believes that only law-enforcement should do it, therefore turning us from civilians to peasants. Also when living in a city, you rely on the city for many things including food, utilities, entertainment, etc. You are essentially tied to the city for all your needs. Look what happened to the people of New Orleans when Katrina hit! They were essentially stranded there because they had virtually no means to survive except to wait for government to come and rescue them. Those who attempted to defend themselves and tried not to solely rely on the government were the ones that were targeted (i.e. gun owners). Imagine a disaster like this happening to New York City, the scale of chaos would be unprecedented. That right there is why people living in the city, especially New York, will never truly care or fight for the right to defend themselves and is a lost cause because again, they have to rely on the city and the laws that the city passes to ensure this and therefore, make you slaves. Someone living in a rural setting has more individual freedoms for themsleves. They must rely on themselves to survive and are not in the confines of a city which is just another cog in the system of government coming down from the federal level. Living in a rural setting truly shows someone how to be truly self-sufficient and be able to rely on themselves instead of others. There is little to virtually no government interference at all. That is how you survive as well as carrying a tool to defend yourself in the most effective way, the gun.

P.S. To answer your question about the "need" for a CCW, the majority of us owners would rather not have to go through the loopholes and miles of red tape to get one but exercise our God-given rights as human beings to defend ourselves from enemies both foreign and domestic. Also I have been to New York City twice, fun place to visit but not my cup of tea.

 

[ctdonath]

why would you NOT want to live in NYC? How many of you have actually BEEN there?

Been there a few times. Couldn't wait to get out.
Oh, sure, there's some nifty stuff like the Guggenheim, Met, and Sony. On the whole, however, just sardine-packed people & concrete. And whatever it was that crawled out of the cracks en masse at the stroke of 1:00AM, causing the humans to flee. And being interrogated by Federal Marshals just because I was fiddling with a videocamera (true!). Not to mention the RKBA issues, which I won't...

Nope, far preferred to leave the 5 lanes of not-moving taxis and 'Hello'-means-'give-me-money' and return to my two acres and a ranch house at the monthly price of a NYC closet (and would own it outright in a few years), surrounded by hundreds of acres of hayfields (nary a neighbor in sight), and able to shoot stuff in the back yard. And no that doesn't make me a Cretin, as what I saved in rent alone could take me to dang near any museum or performance within a few hours.

Now I'm in a quasi-suburban/rural setting, can buy whatever bangsticks I want, and can get to - and away from - the niftiness you describe, in minutes (Atlanta), in about 45 minutes. Bonus: criminals assume homeowners WILL fight back; people are very polite here...

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

As quotable by the article:

FEES
$340.00 - Made payable to the New York City Police Department, must be paid by certified check or money order.

$99.00 - Made payable to the New York City Police Department, must be paid by certified check or money order.

The above fees must be paid separately.

ALL FEES ARE NON-REFUNDABLE

That is extremely unjustifiable especially when you know the odds are stacked against you. $439.00??

 

[shookwell]

In addition to the $439, you have to appear in person at 1 Police Plaza in Manhattan a total of 5 separate times (get an application, submit the app, go for an interview, pick up your permit, bring your purchased firearm for inspection) during work hours. You also have to give them a list of every summons or arrest you ever had, every place you lived (past 5 years I think), every place you've worked, and some other stuff. They will call your boss, and your wife, and whatever references you give them. And this is all just to own a firearm in your own home. Also, if you get caught with a round that's not the same caliber as the gun on your license, you get arrested. And if you get arrested for anything, expect to have to fight for your license, because they will take it away.