Divorce and a 4473. What would you do?

[Ranger Roberts]

Hello all. My brother is currently getting divorced from his wife. There are a few pistols that she bought over the years that he will be keeping. She is ok with him keeping them, there is no dispute over them, the guns just aren't a good fit for her so she wants him to have them (I wish my divorce was this civil!). He told me that he is going to take them down to our lgs and do a 4473 for them. I told him that I think it is unnecessary from a legal perspective but to do whatever he is comfortable with.
So my question is two fold:
a) legally is he obligated to fill out a 4473?
b) if he is not obligated, would you do it anyhow?
Thanks everyone!

edit: They live in Pennsylvania

 

[morcey2]

I'm not sure what the purpose would be for doing that. I know quite a few people who thing that doing a 4473 on a gun is what "registers" a gun with the proper authorities or is required for ownership transfer. Maybe they're thinking that's what they're doing. What state are they in?

 

[KansasSasquatch]

A. Legally speaking it would depend greatly on which state they currently reside and the laws of that state. I don't believe it is necessary from the federal standpoint.

B. I wouldn't waste the time or money if the state laws didn't require it.

I'm not a lawyer and I don't know which state they're in to give better advice.

 

[TomJ]

He should consult his attorney.

 

[toivo]

Agree with KansasSasquatch -- it depends on the state. Here in New York, post-2013 it has to go through an FFL. Before that, it didn't.

Per state law, handgun transfers always had to go through the sheriff's office because we have registration of handguns to their owners. Now they have to go through the sheriff's office and an FFL. Long guns are FFL only, except in NY City, which is a world unto itself.

 

[Kingcreek]

Seems like ownership going forward could be written into the divorce agreement in a division of assets. Don't know state specifics but it's simple enough here. No need for 4473s

 

[Jim Watson]

Depends on state law if a UBC is required on private transfer.

Prudence indicates a bill of sale or other document of private transfer in case the ex should change her mind.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

Legally speaking it would depend greatly on which state they currently reside and the laws of that state. I don't believe it is necessary from the federal standpoint.

Sorry guys. I edited the post. They live in Pennsylvania.

 

[larryh1108]

If PA doesn't prohibit a sale of a pistol to another legal buyer who also resides in that state then all he should do is complete a bill of sale and purchase each one listed for $1 and actually hand her the cash. Have both parties sign and date the bill of sale and mark it "Paid in Full". Give each one a copy or make 2 originals (one for each). This will prevent future claims to the pistols should she get a bug up her neck for something she perceived you did to her. (Divorced 2x here)

 

[subdude]

It's Pennsylvania. No transfer required between spouses. Have at it.

(1) For purposes of a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of the sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee. The form of this application/record of sale shall be no more than one page in length and shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer. The application/record of sale shall include the name, address, birthdate, gender, race, physical description and Social Security number of the purchaser or transferee, the date of the application and the caliber, length of barrel, make, model and manufacturer's number of the firearm to be purchased or transferred. The application/record of sale shall also contain the following question: Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s), as defined under 18 Pa.C.S. § 6102 (relating to definitions), listed on this application/record of sale? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person, unless you are legitimately acquiring the firearm as a gift for any of the following individuals who are legally eligible to own a firearm: (1) spouse; (2) parent; (3) child; (4) grandparent; or
(5) grandchild.

Edited to add: There is no "registration" in PA, only transfer. And to answer question b:, no chance would I do it.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I would talk with a lawyer and get things in writing.
No, do not need 4473's but likely worth the hassle in this case so if she changed her mind years from now they are legally his.
Also, good to have the paper trail of what is his/hers for the division of assets.

 

[jmr40]

Guns can be gifted legally. At least in most places. The 4473 does not prove ownership, just who purchased them. If there is no registration in the state, and as long as he has a written receipt of them being gifted I'd think all should be fine. I'm assuming , hoping, he has his own lawyer. He should be consulted before doing anything.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

As Frank has repeatedly pointed out on the Legal forum, 4473 is about possession and access more than it is about ownership interests. For example, leaving a gun with a relative and picking it up later would require a 4473 under Federal Law if the relative had access and one of the two subsequently became a resident of a different state.

Even in a no-private-transfer-state he may already be in possession. It would be a complicated question.

A cursory Google Search seems to indicate that Pennsylvania limits private transfers for non-long-arms but exempts transfers between "spouses, parents and children, or grandparents and grandchildren".

Mike

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

OK...having been through a divorce (and I wouldn't wish my experience on my worst enemy) and having seen all manner of divorce experiences via family, friends, shipmates, and co-workers, I recommend the issue of ownership be settled in writing, however that may be done.

I don't believe PA requires an FFL transfer, but that's a legal matter your brother needs to address.

If this is the case, then simply get it documented in his court papers that he will retain ownership of whatever firearms while she retains ownership of whatever others.

This doesn't have to be in the final divorce papers. It can be in a court ordered document addressing property division, for example. Many people address issues such as property, child support, etc. in court documents prior to the actual divorce.

End of story.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Pennsylvania law requires that private transfers of handguns (but not long guns) go through an FFL. There might be some exemptions for immediate family or a spouse, but I don't know for sure; so that needs to be looked into.

Also, IIRC Pennsylvania is a common law marital property State, so depending on a whole bunch of facts we don't have the handguns might well be legally the separate property of the spouse necessitating some sort of formal transfer of ownership.

 

[Dr. Sandman]

I would not bother with the 4473. If they belong to both you and your wife, then they are already yours. Keep the guns and forget about it.

 

[bullseye308]

Have a lawyer draw up a paper saying she is giving the listed items to him of her own free will and list mfr, model, caliber, and serial of each one then get 6 copies notorized. She gets 2, he gets 2, lawyer gets 2.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I would not bother with the 4473. If they belong to both you and your wife, then they are already yours. Keep the guns and forget about it.

And exactly what makes you think that the guns belong to both his wife and him?

Pennsylvania is a common law marital property State not a community property State. Under common law marital property principles, property acquired by one spouse belongs solely and exclusively to that spouse absent clear evidence that the parties intend title to be held jointly.

So you're wrong.

Have a lawyer draw up a paper saying she is giving the listed items to him of her own free will and list mfr, model, caliber, and serial of each one then get 6 copies notorized. She gets 2, he gets 2, lawyer gets 2.

What make you think that is legally sufficient? Can you cite Pennsylvania law supporting your advice? If you can't you have no business spouting off.

 

[KevininPa]

No need for paperwork, subdude has it right. Don't waste your time or money.

 

[Sam1911]

As has been posted above, transfers of a handgun between spouses do not require a 4473 and the PSP's record of sale. Legally in regard to the transfer question, this is a matter of the two of them simply choosing which guns they want and taking them.


From the divorce perspective, things get messier and we're not really qualified here to offer the most concrete advice. However, almost everything in a divorce depends on how "amicable" the split is. If it really is going to go smoothly, then divvying up household goods can be very simple and the guns aren't any more of a sticking point than, say, the toaster or the lawn mower.

 

[Frank Ettin]

As has been posted above, transfers of a handgun between spouses do not require a 4473 and the PSP's record of sale. Legally in regard to the transfer question, this is a matter of the two of them simply choosing which guns they want and taking them....

Thank you, Sam. So even though the wife's handguns might well be her sole and separate property, they can be transferred to the husband without formalities.

....From the divorce perspective, things get messier and we're not really qualified here to offer the most concrete advice. However, almost everything in a divorce depends on how "amicable" the split is. If it really is going to go smoothly, then divvying up household goods can be very simple and the guns aren't any more of a sticking point than, say, the toaster or the lawn mower.

Ig the parties are represented by counsel, the lawyers could work out the appropriate way to document the division of personal property, including the guns. That's usually a part of the documentation of any divorce.

 

[subdude]

Frank, there is no "transfer" required in PA between spouses, etc. Just hand it to them. Done.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank, there is no "transfer" required in PA between spouses, etc. Just hand it to them. Done.

Nope. That's a transfer. Handing someone a gun (or anything else) is a transfer of possession. Handing someone a gun (or anything else) with the intention that the gun (or anything else) now belongs to that person is both a transfer of possession and a transfer of ownership. The legal issues generally revolve around how whatever type of transfer you're doing needs to be done to be both legal and avoid potential legal problems.

So sometimes with guns (and certain other things), depending on circumstance and/or state or federal law, some formalities might, or might not, be required. What the situation here is that under Pennsylvania law one spouse can transfer possession and/or ownership to the other without any special formalities.

 

[buck460XVR]

If not required by law, I wouldn't bother. Divorce is spendy enough without adding the cost of a bunch of transfer fees.

 

[22-rimfire]

I don't believe completing the 4473 is required in PA in the transfer between family members. But if it makes him feel better, by all means run down to the Sheriff's Dept or a gun shop and complete the forms. I would simply do a bill of sale for the record with the serial numbers recorded on it. Scan it and save it in his computer with a backup.