Do armed criminals usually fight or run when the intended victim pulls a firearm?
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EvilGenius
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+1
One of Miller's sayings is "Be rude, don't be a dick."
Meaning, dont be afraid or hesitant to tell someone to back off or leave, close the door in their face, etc.
But DO NOT insult them. The initial contact (assuming its not a blindside) is the beginning of the negotiation of your victimization. If youre deliberate and confident most will move on to easier targets. But as soon as you make it personal with some errant remark or judgement. Its no longer a negotiation, it's a power struggle/dance and they have much much more on the line as far as defending their image, manliness, whatever than you do. It's no longer about them getting money or items, it's about scaring, hurting or killing you to prove a point.
orionengnr
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Post #4 was the most worthwhile in this thread.
Close second to post #74.
Well thought out and well articulated.
Among candidates for the most idiotic:
And then, posted by an (alleged) attorney:
Close second to post #74.
Well thought out and well articulated.
Among candidates for the most idiotic:
Piss-poor tactics, and looking for an ND and a civil case. Assuming that this was a revolver--for a 1911, a cocked hammer is not worthy of note (the positions of the thumb safety and of the trigger finger would be, though)...
And then, posted by an (alleged) attorney:
Really? Is this what THR has devolved to recently?
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Certaindeaf
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Most judgemental, post #77.
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soonerboomer
Member
Thanks for asking. Honestly, nothing in particular. I just find the thread discussion informative (especially the sociology side of things).
Of late I've been thinking about potential self defense situations and probabilities. And, while I do not advocate negligence in preparedness, it does seem to me that the likelihood of an escalating violent engagement is rare once a defensive firearm (and posture) is brought into readiness.
soonerboomer said:
Fortunately it is rare, but should not be relied upon.
For example some people were compiling stories of where a full auto firearm had been used in self-defense.
One incident involved a guy who worked for Heckler & Koch.
After upsetting some guys in traffic they followed him shooting at him with a handgun. Two individuals in the vehicle, a passenger and driver.
The H&K employee finally drove to his workplace. They pulled in to the same area and the driver I think it was got out of the vehicle. The H&K employee got out of his vehicle with a rifle in his hands and fired several rounds on full auto into the air.
The brilliant criminal's response? To charge at the guy firing a full auto rifle with two knives in his hands.
If he had had a gun he presumably would have fired it at him just as readily (the gun was still in the vehicle with the passenger if I recall.)
You cannot rely on them doing what they are more likely to do.
Most criminals flee most of the time, to try again another day. But a good percentage also do something else entirely.
The only safe presumption if they have a firearm themselves is that they will react in a deadly manner.
So any course of action taken must assume as soon as they realize a victim has a gun they will open fire instead of or in addition to fleeing.
Fortunately it is rare, but should not be relied upon.
For example some people were compiling stories of where a full auto firearm had been used in self-defense.
One incident involved a guy who worked for Heckler & Koch.
After upsetting some guys in traffic they followed him shooting at him with a handgun. Two individuals in the vehicle, a passenger and driver.
The H&K employee finally drove to his workplace. They pulled in to the same area and the driver I think it was got out of the vehicle. The H&K employee got out of his vehicle with a rifle in his hands and fired several rounds on full auto into the air.
The brilliant criminal's response? To charge at the guy firing a full auto rifle with two knives in his hands.
If he had had a gun he presumably would have fired it at him just as readily (the gun was still in the vehicle with the passenger if I recall.)
You cannot rely on them doing what they are more likely to do.
Most criminals flee most of the time, to try again another day. But a good percentage also do something else entirely.
The only safe presumption if they have a firearm themselves is that they will react in a deadly manner.
So any course of action taken must assume as soon as they realize a victim has a gun they will open fire instead of or in addition to fleeing.
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A criminal cannot afford the luxury, if we can call it that, of getting shot. If he is not killed, he will end up in a hospital sooner or later for treatment where he will be asked questions and put into custody. So the presence of the gun raises the stakes for the criminal to a point that if the motive of the crime is $50 bucks and watch it simply isn’t worth it. But the criminal has got to have a way out physically and emotionally. As it has been mentioned already it is not good business to make such a transaction personal by insulting the criminal or attempting to hold him. As a civilian, our only responsibility is for the safe keeping of ourselves and family or friends, i.e. a fleeing criminal is the best possible outcome. Holding a criminal at gun point is like getting inside a car with a feral cat.
If the criminal is stupid or acting irrationally, then the mere presence of a gun may enrage him further. Who knows what will happen. Best practice: the moment you feel your life is in danger put your front sight on the criminal. If he flees that’s a plus. If he doesn’t, may God help you and carry through.
If the criminal is stupid or acting irrationally, then the mere presence of a gun may enrage him further. Who knows what will happen. Best practice: the moment you feel your life is in danger put your front sight on the criminal. If he flees that’s a plus. If he doesn’t, may God help you and carry through.
crracer_712
Member
Criminals don't pick on the elderly, they run away if threatened with force and they gladly pay for any wrong doing.
Deanimator
Member
As with most things, "It depends".
Most armed robbers are hardly "brave". They seek the weak and unaware. If they wanted to work for their money they'd get jobs.
On the other hand, stupid people, crazy people and people with bad judgment don't know when to call it a day. The other night, I saw video of a bar shootout in Toledo, Ohio. A patron got the boot for trying to sell dope in the bar. He came back with a gun. One of the bar employees "found" a gun on the floor. When the ejected patron started shooting into the bar, the employee and a random patron sought cover behind and under a pool table and returned fire. Not only did the nitwit who started the gunfight NOT leave, he actually entered the bar AFTER the shooting started. Had either of his opponents had even MINIMAL shooting ability, he'd have been one dead moron.
It's nice when a would be predator flees at the sight of a gun. It's even common.
Just don't take it as a given.
Most armed robbers are hardly "brave". They seek the weak and unaware. If they wanted to work for their money they'd get jobs.
On the other hand, stupid people, crazy people and people with bad judgment don't know when to call it a day. The other night, I saw video of a bar shootout in Toledo, Ohio. A patron got the boot for trying to sell dope in the bar. He came back with a gun. One of the bar employees "found" a gun on the floor. When the ejected patron started shooting into the bar, the employee and a random patron sought cover behind and under a pool table and returned fire. Not only did the nitwit who started the gunfight NOT leave, he actually entered the bar AFTER the shooting started. Had either of his opponents had even MINIMAL shooting ability, he'd have been one dead moron.
It's nice when a would be predator flees at the sight of a gun. It's even common.
Just don't take it as a given.
Deanimator
Member
A snapping turtle is "stupid".
It doesn't take much brains to bite your finger off.
Your average criminal is stupid.
It doesn't take much brains to pull a trigger.
Stupid people are more dangerous in many cases than smart ones. A smart criminal can do at least a minimal cost benefit analysis. A stupid one can't. He's apt to do something virtually GUARANTEED to end badly for him. Whether it ends badly for YOU is a function of your situational awareness and your ruthless capacity to do ANYTHING to survive the encounter.
When guns/knives come out, the negotiations are at an end. There's nothing to discuss, no bargains to be struck, no mercy to be offered as long as there's a threat in play. Once you put me in reasonable fear of life and limb, there are no threats, no warnings, just the unswerving effort to eliminate the threat expeditiously and at minimum danger to myself.
From news reports, it seems that a LOT of the people who end up getting hurt or killed by criminal assailants issue threats or warnings, try to reason, etc., etc., etc. If you put me in reasonable and immediate fear of life and limb, I'm going to assume that you mean it. That means that the next step is the overwhelming and unhesitating application of the utmost force and violence to end the threat. You get no warnings. I don't try to talk you out of it. I assume that you're every bit as serious as I am.
In a deadly force encounter I can choose my own welfare or that of my assailant. It's not a hard choice.
MuleRyder
Member
Reminds me of a shooting in Maine years ago and underscores the unpredictability of people
Two women were working in a convenience store and a guy known to one or both women kept hanging around, being a nuisance generally. I believe he was interested in one of them, finally they grew tired of him and told him to leave. They had words and he got mad and left. He went out to his truck and got a .357 or he went home and got it, I can't remember, but either way he went back into the store and shot and killed both women behind the counter. 2 shots each as I remember, just because they enraged him by hurting his feelings by telling him to leave. You never know what is going on in someones head and how they will react to something most would consider minor in nature.
Certaindeaf
member
Except for those poor souls essentially snuffed on a whim and within a blink.
Among candidates for the most idiotic:
In response to post 77. Yes I held off fire for a split second to give the guy a chance to back off, which he did and he was still 5 feet away! It saved me from perhaps a lengthy Civil Suit and ended on a good note. I carry for defence and will fire if needed.
The poster questioned as to whether I was using a revolver or an auto and references having the hammer cocked. He didnt know and I had even named the weapon I was carrying in my post!
I think the guy just likes to spout off!
He wasnt there and to make judgements of this type shows a total lack of thought process.
Let there be no mistake, had the guy moved an inch closer, there would have been a very different outcome!
In closing I will express my disapointment that this person even carries for self defense as it sounds like he is saying once the threat is there, he is going to shoot. Not me, I dont want to have to defend a shot in the back! a good way to find yoursef in jail facing civil and possible arrest.
In closing , I had thought it would be good to share the experience but now I am not so sure.
I have been a member for a few months but after watching not just this thread , but many others, it would appear that some respondees just sit and wait to pick on someone and pontificate. I dont need to, I experienced it first hand and dont need any one to tell me how to react to that type of situation.
Well posting is not for me, I will not be posting again.
Roger
In response to post 77. Yes I held off fire for a split second to give the guy a chance to back off, which he did and he was still 5 feet away! It saved me from perhaps a lengthy Civil Suit and ended on a good note. I carry for defence and will fire if needed.
The poster questioned as to whether I was using a revolver or an auto and references having the hammer cocked. He didnt know and I had even named the weapon I was carrying in my post!
I think the guy just likes to spout off!
He wasnt there and to make judgements of this type shows a total lack of thought process.
Let there be no mistake, had the guy moved an inch closer, there would have been a very different outcome!
In closing I will express my disapointment that this person even carries for self defense as it sounds like he is saying once the threat is there, he is going to shoot. Not me, I dont want to have to defend a shot in the back! a good way to find yoursef in jail facing civil and possible arrest.
In closing , I had thought it would be good to share the experience but now I am not so sure.
I have been a member for a few months but after watching not just this thread , but many others, it would appear that some respondees just sit and wait to pick on someone and pontificate. I dont need to, I experienced it first hand and dont need any one to tell me how to react to that type of situation.
Well posting is not for me, I will not be posting again.
Roger
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exavid
Member
No reason not to post, I found your post quite creditable and think you did the right thing. Right thing because you were ready and the end result was in your favor. Forums like these do attract boorish comments, and worse from those who haven't experienced a similar situation, unfortunately it's to be expected. Rather than withdrawing from the forum simply ignore the rude and confrontational atittude of the ignorant.
grilledcheese
Member
I'll second that motion---no need to leave. Just don't feed the trolls and try to ignore them.
Jeffrey
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My Latino friend noticed three NMs maneuvering to surround him. This was in Oakland, CA. He put down his duffle bag and was pulling out his pistol. One saw the glow of the night sights. He shouted gun and they fled. My friend didn't even brandish it yet.
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