Countryboy7
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Interesting story exbrit, must have been one hell of a adrenaline rush
Do armed criminals usually fight or run when the intended victim pulls a firearm?
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Ignition Override
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jscott:
It's always interesting to read comments from any officer who spends his working days trying to control society's leeches, and get the more dangerous two-legged animals off of our streets, back into their cages.
Thank you very much.
It's always interesting to read comments from any officer who spends his working days trying to control society's leeches, and get the more dangerous two-legged animals off of our streets, back into their cages.
Thank you very much.
Zombiphobia
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Someone watches America's Most Wanted a bit too much.
To risk being shot by a store owner, or slashed with a razor by the girl who's car they're jacking, or shot by guards when they rob an armored car, or even the enforcers working for organized crime groups. Yeah, they're cowards too, the whole lot of 'em. None of it requires nerve.
Criminals may be alot of things, but to say they're all cowards by nature is a bit ignorant.
Edit: The guy who mentioned the sociopath/psychopath factor; good job.
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Yeah, don't mistake expediency for cowardliness. Criminals are there to get a paid by employing the least amount of effort possible in order to do so. The moment you increase the effort required- in this case to lethal outcomes -the risk vs reward benefits becomes vastly skewed against them. A firearm means possibly getting shot at, possibly getting wounded, possibly getting killed. A firearm being discharged attracts attention to their activities; up to and including police. Engaging somebody with a firearm simply isn't worth the trouble or consequences. Risk vs reward is a parallel that can be drawn in crime and sales.
Swap that scenario out with a baseball bat or a stungun might change the perp's outlook on whether he can take you or not. Or maybe you just don't look confident enough to pull the trigger in some cases. Your firearm works by and large because it represents an overwhelming and supremely lethal advantage. There are other fish in the sea that won't shoot back, so why bother?
For a criminal to continue his assault in the face of firearms generally indicates:
-Natural or chemically induced mental instability.
-You not looking confident enough to pull down (roll for charisma and initiative).
-Payday worth the risk (you know who you are, or should).
-No avenue of retreat.
-Any combination of the above.
Swap that scenario out with a baseball bat or a stungun might change the perp's outlook on whether he can take you or not. Or maybe you just don't look confident enough to pull the trigger in some cases. Your firearm works by and large because it represents an overwhelming and supremely lethal advantage. There are other fish in the sea that won't shoot back, so why bother?
For a criminal to continue his assault in the face of firearms generally indicates:
-Natural or chemically induced mental instability.
-You not looking confident enough to pull down (roll for charisma and initiative).
-Payday worth the risk (you know who you are, or should).
-No avenue of retreat.
-Any combination of the above.
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It's extremely naive to think that all criminals are going to turn and run at the mere sight of your gun or it's bullets coming at them.
If your plan is to just scare an attacker with your gun, and you're counting on that to work every time, then you need to put your gun up. There are plenty of psychopaths and sociopaths out there who won't hesitate to call your bluff.
If your plan is to just scare an attacker with your gun, and you're counting on that to work every time, then you need to put your gun up. There are plenty of psychopaths and sociopaths out there who won't hesitate to call your bluff.
Crusader103
Member
Not so. He was not fleeing the prospect of being shot. He was fleeing the prospect of going to jail. He didn't care if he was to be shot. He was inviting it. He simply didn't want to lose his freedom.
That may sound odd to you but it's the truth and it is a rather common theme amongst the criminal element. Since criminals have little fear of a private citizen arresting them, you need only be concerned with whether or not they care about being shot. Many don't.
exavid
Member
Seems like a useless question, you'll find out when you face the situation. In the meantime one had better expect the robber to be armed and ready to shoot you so act accordingly. If you're wrong, you'll still be standing. If you're right and lucky you'll still be standing. With a mindset of anything else you may not be standing.
Fair enough, but that's also implicit in the average citizen pulling a firearm on any criminal. The moment a gun is brought into play, he faces injury, death and at very least immediate exposure that will potential land him in jail.
More to the point, it's not your good looks the perp is running from in that field. The threat of jail is backed up by force of arms. That pistol strapped to your belt. He's running because you have imminent and immediate authority to enforce your will upon his person all the way up to lethal measures. I'm sure "jail! jail! jail!" is humming in the back of their mind, but you are the manifestation of that. Likewise, it's really more complicated than that as a LEO. Being experienced as you say these people are, he undoubtedly knows that until he makes a big enough nuisance of himself, you won't- sometimes can't -fire upon him. Why not try his luck in getting away? Even when he was stopped in the field and out of options, you chose to allow another officer the risk of bodily harm to apprehend him instead of choosing the safer alternative for both of you; that is to say drop him with a bullet. I'd risk a confrontation too if I knew you couldn't or wouldn't fire upon me; at very least to buy time.
Before we go any further, I would like to make it clear there's nothing wrong with that nor am I making a judgement call.
I would, however, submit that your experience colors you to a different type of engagement than the average citizen has to face as your last statement indicates. I would also submit that any perp would be less willing to run if you didn't have a gun. The threat of jail is only worth something if you can back it up and I'm willing to bet a significantly higher chunk of the criminal population would take there chances in a physical confrontation with a minimally armed police force before feeling the need to run in the first place. Again, if that wasn't so, logic says you wouldn't need a sidearm in the first place. You could simply admonish them with a stern warning concerning jail time and be on your way. You have far more complex rules of engagement than the average citizen. You know it. Your experienced criminal knows it. It changes the setup radically.
Anyway, no need to beat my POV into the ground. I only saw drunks on shore patrol; hardly real law enforcement experience
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mortablunt
Member
Criminals normally run when you pull a weapon. Normally, if they fire back, it is while they are trying to get out. If you have cause to believe that they will use deadly force, then don't let them be the first to use it.
+2 for Open Carry. That's what I call a deterrent.
+2 for Open Carry. That's what I call a deterrent.
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Trunk Monkey
member
I would think it would be safer to assume that the criminal is going to fight, that way you're not caught off guard if he does.
BSA1
member
Do armed criminals usually fight or run when the intended victim pulls a firearm?
Absolutely! Wolves prefer unarmed sheep. exbrit49 story is a good example of a typical armed encounter. The only thing I would have done different is not waste my time calling the police and get back on the road.
Research is hard to come by in this area since most civilian armed encounters end without shots being fired and the civiliangoing back to his businessw oithout calling the police. Dr. Gary Kleck has done some research in this are which you may find of interest.
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html
Absolutely! Wolves prefer unarmed sheep. exbrit49 story is a good example of a typical armed encounter. The only thing I would have done different is not waste my time calling the police and get back on the road.
Research is hard to come by in this area since most civilian armed encounters end without shots being fired and the civiliangoing back to his businessw oithout calling the police. Dr. Gary Kleck has done some research in this are which you may find of interest.
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html
The Lone Haranguer
Member
I think it is probable, but don't count on it. To use an analogy, the sound of a pump shotgun racking may scare them off, but that doesn't mean you don't need shells in it. Be ready to take appropriate followup action (aka Condition Red).
Don't assume that a bad guy is going to run away, you could be "dead wrong". If you are dealing with a "predicate felon", who if caught will do life on his multiple felonies, he will not go quietlly. Be ready to fire, don't engage in a discussion, just something like, drop your weapon now, or I will shoot you. Sit down, keep your hands where I can see them, and sit on them, if you move, you will get shot. Secure him if possible.
Don't get into a conversation as you don't know if he's stalling for time while his buddy flanks you, and your done for. If he's smart, he may drop the gun and run away, which puts you in a bad position, he's now unarmed and there is no threat, "unless he's in your house or on your property". It's still hard to convince anyone you had to shoot a fleeing suspect.
There are a lot of bad guys out there with a big set. They don't all give up, they probe your weakness,while one is talking, if they can engage you, they may con you into taking your mind off what you were doing, and turn the tables, also, they may think after sizing you up, that they can still take you, gun or not. Plus the drug thing, irrational people do irrational things. He may have a knife "usually do" or a spare gun. Distracting you or engaging in conversation, is the worse thing to do. You want to state your orders loud and clear, "like you see in every cop show", Drop the weapon now, get down on the ground and let me see your hands at all times. That's it. Just because you have a gun, doesn't impress some people. They have been doing this a long time, and have had numerous guns pointed at them, they know, you may miss,"if they rush you" and many will take the chance, especially if they see your hand shaking, or if you appear unsure as what to do next.
Never assume that because you got the advantage for the moment, that it's over. You may have to use your head more than your weapon, if he doesn't sit or start to comply while trying to move in on you, a warning, "stop or I will shoot" followed by a shot to the leg, or next to his foot, may be in order. Many will disagree, but you need him to do what you say when you say it. If there are no consequences, he will try to take you. You may forget that this guy would have killed you and possiblly your friends or family a few minutes ago. He is the enemy, and will try untill he no longer sees an escape is possible.
All this time, depending on where this happens, other things are going on, you may not know his friend is right there someware in the crowd or pretending to be a passerby, or even offering to help. keep everyone at a distance until you have a clear picture or Police arrive.Please stay back, he may be armed, police are on route.
That video that was up a few days ago, showed a guy with a knife, wound 3 or 4 cops, while they were shooting at him the whole time. He may have killed one,running back and forth, possiblly died after, but the damage was done.
Don't get into a conversation as you don't know if he's stalling for time while his buddy flanks you, and your done for. If he's smart, he may drop the gun and run away, which puts you in a bad position, he's now unarmed and there is no threat, "unless he's in your house or on your property". It's still hard to convince anyone you had to shoot a fleeing suspect.
There are a lot of bad guys out there with a big set. They don't all give up, they probe your weakness,while one is talking, if they can engage you, they may con you into taking your mind off what you were doing, and turn the tables, also, they may think after sizing you up, that they can still take you, gun or not. Plus the drug thing, irrational people do irrational things. He may have a knife "usually do" or a spare gun. Distracting you or engaging in conversation, is the worse thing to do. You want to state your orders loud and clear, "like you see in every cop show", Drop the weapon now, get down on the ground and let me see your hands at all times. That's it. Just because you have a gun, doesn't impress some people. They have been doing this a long time, and have had numerous guns pointed at them, they know, you may miss,"if they rush you" and many will take the chance, especially if they see your hand shaking, or if you appear unsure as what to do next.
Never assume that because you got the advantage for the moment, that it's over. You may have to use your head more than your weapon, if he doesn't sit or start to comply while trying to move in on you, a warning, "stop or I will shoot" followed by a shot to the leg, or next to his foot, may be in order. Many will disagree, but you need him to do what you say when you say it. If there are no consequences, he will try to take you. You may forget that this guy would have killed you and possiblly your friends or family a few minutes ago. He is the enemy, and will try untill he no longer sees an escape is possible.
All this time, depending on where this happens, other things are going on, you may not know his friend is right there someware in the crowd or pretending to be a passerby, or even offering to help. keep everyone at a distance until you have a clear picture or Police arrive.Please stay back, he may be armed, police are on route.
That video that was up a few days ago, showed a guy with a knife, wound 3 or 4 cops, while they were shooting at him the whole time. He may have killed one,running back and forth, possiblly died after, but the damage was done.
Trunk Monkey
member
GYM said:
I know we can’t possibly prepare for every eventuality but I can not conceive of a circumstance that would lead me to draw against an armed criminal and simply order him to drop his weapon. If the situation has gone that far the time for talk is over.
There will be no warning commands. Unless the criminal stands down between the time I draw and my sights are on the target I will fire.
GYM said:
Quite possibly the very worst advice I have ever read on the internet. We do not shoot to enforce compliance we shoot to defend life or we do not shoot at all. Your “advice” could very well lead to you sharing a cell with the criminal you shot.
baylorattorney
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If I pull it, the armed criminal won't run. His blood certainly will tho.
Judge a man not by the answers he gives, but by the questions he asks. - Voltaire
Judge a man not by the answers he gives, but by the questions he asks. - Voltaire
X-Rap
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I suggest getting acquainted with someone involved in the prison system if you want serious insight into the criminal mind set. Their views will be biased but in this case that is probably better. They see daily what we can only speculate on and case managers and such who have years of experience will tell you that while by nature criminals are cowards but some of them are also very ruthless and evil.
browningguy
Member
That's the sort of thinking that can lead to you getting killed. If a bad guy is going after you, you better be thinking about putting him out of hs misery pretty quickly, otherwise you may be the one lying on the ground bleeding out.
Looking at it from the other perspective
I think most criminals are too stupid to predict. A smart robber would flee, knowing that 95% of the time their victim knows and follows the law and just wants to be left alone, thus the victim probably won't shoot if you have an immediate attitude adjustment. That's probably the best odds he's going to get. If he opens fire, chances are he's going to get some return fire before either party goes down. People who get shot usually have to go to the hospital, and that means getting caught. But you never know. A lot of them probably think that you'll drop with one shot like a sack of potatoes, like what happens in the movies and videogames.
I think most criminals are too stupid to predict. A smart robber would flee, knowing that 95% of the time their victim knows and follows the law and just wants to be left alone, thus the victim probably won't shoot if you have an immediate attitude adjustment. That's probably the best odds he's going to get. If he opens fire, chances are he's going to get some return fire before either party goes down. People who get shot usually have to go to the hospital, and that means getting caught. But you never know. A lot of them probably think that you'll drop with one shot like a sack of potatoes, like what happens in the movies and videogames.
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CountryUgly
Member
IMO if you carry a firearm and are presented with an armed attacker and you pull your weapon and don't fire I would consider that brandishing a firearm which is illegal but if you fire that is self defense and perfectly legal...so please don't be a criminal and pull the trigger.. This way of thinking is based on personal experience with an armed attacker and from what I've seen these thugs don't run, at least not until after they have shot you.
floydster
Member
Trunk Monkey--thank you for your post, it made my day--and you are absolutley correct,how long does it take for BG to cover 20 feet with a knife--seconds--a lot shorter time then for you to say, "sit down and keep your hands where I can see them", I'm still laughing
Floydster
Floydster
Certaindeaf
member
I wouldn't bet on nothing. I think the Cooper said to say perhaps something (to ropeadope their braincell) and then do a certain thing, given a certain situation. never know
jad0110
Member
Agreed. Likely, but don't bet your life on it.
Panzercat,
Excellent, thougthful post. Very well said.
I cannot cite the study but in a promenent one, convicts were interviewed. 40% stated that they had avoided commiting a particular crime because they thought the victim was probably armed. If I were a BG type, I don't think I would seek out a victim who could probably effectively fight back. That said, my EDC is hot 24/365.
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