• You are using the old Black Responsive theme. We have installed a new dark theme for you, called UI.X. This will work better with the new upgrade of our software. You can select it at the bottom of any page.

Do concealed guns belong in stadiums?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Guillermo said:
actually we didn't agree that the instance of violence is low...I merely accepted the premise for the point of discussion.

I guess I need to work on my reading comprehension because I don't glean anything concerning travel to and fro or leaving a weapon in a car. Or for that matter, that any reason why I should not be allowed to carry.
Click to expand...

That's because travel to and from stadium, etc. is not an issue. You have a CHL, you can carry no problem. Apparently your situation is that your stadium does a weapons check... sorry if I sound confused because I thought a couple of people said that some stadiums do allow concealed carry. How would you handle traveling to an airport? My understanding of what you're saying is that you want no restrictions on concealed carry, so you never have to deal with the issue of moving from a legal to a prohibited area. It's ok to feel that way, but it's not the way things are, and my reply would be that your personal defense plan should be set up to deal with that reality. You are of course free to work to change things, and I would encourage you to do so.

I asked in general earlier, but didn't see a response, I thought a couple of posters said it was legal to carry concealed at their stadiums. Would someone mind posting which stadiums those are?
 
My understanding of what you're saying is that you want no restrictions on concealed carry, so you never have to deal with the issue of moving from a legal to a prohibited area. It's ok to feel that way, but it's not the way things are
Click to expand...
It is no sin to recognize how things are, while working to make them as they should be.
 
Let me add to that -- people who lack the discipline to effectively and safely use a firearm shouldn't project their inadequacies onto the rest of us.

I am reminded of a passenger on a military flight who said we shouldn't have parachutes, because "I could never jump."

My response to that was, "I can. So if anything goes wrong, I'm going out that door, and you can enjoy the ride down."
Click to expand...

Hey Vern (i used to love those movies..anyway) for the folks here that keep wanting to imply that I am not capable of carrying a firearm ...PLEASE actually take the time to read my posts. I assume you can read and comprehend since you were capable of filling out the proper paperwork for a carry permit.

I am not trying to me agrumentative of disrespectful (and I do not want this thread to get locked) but I am insulted when people assume things about me without taking the time to read what I have said.

I NEVER stated that someone else should not be allowed to carry in a stadium. I said it should be legal. I did state why I would not carry myself and why I do not think a firearm should ever be used in a stadium. I personaly rather not carry into an enviroment that I would not use. At this point in my life a stadium is the only enviroment I feel this way about. If you want to carry thats fine with me...please keep in consideration the consequences of discharging a firearm in that enviroment though. And I am sure 99% of the people here would keep that in consideration.

Also let me add that people who lack the disccipline to effectively read and comprehend post then maybe that should not be on message boards. It is ok though, internet forums are not for everyone.;)
 
Vern Humphrey said:
One point the control freaks have failed to address -- there are many stadiums where people can and do carry.

So why don't we see shootings instead of fist-fights at those stadiums?

Any answers?:p
Click to expand...

I haven't seen any control freaks here, except to the extent that anyone except an absolutist is a "freak." But setting aside the name calling, you raise what could be an interesting data point. What are the stadiums where CC has been allowed? If there are a lot, and it has gone on for a while without incident, then that would go a long way towards resolving my doubts.
 
ATLDave said:
I haven't seen any control freaks here, except to the extent that anyone except an absolutist is a "freak." But setting aside the name calling, you raise what could be an interesting data point. What are the stadiums where CC has been allowed? If there are a lot, and it has gone on for a while without incident, then that would go a long way towards resolving my doubts.
Click to expand...

Seconded.
 
The "No guns in stadiums" folk seem to rely on three arguments:

1. Stadiums are unique in their population density. I would say, no they are not. If you have been in a NYC sidewalk or subway (car, platform or entrance/exit) at rush hour; or at the mall near Christmas, you have seen the same density.

But even that does not matter: all you need is a few people behind an attacker to create the high probability that a miss or a pass-through will cause innocent injury; so any additional density at a stadium doesn't substantially alter that risk. The innocents don't have to be a hundred deep: a small crowd at a bus stop is functionally the same.

2. Legally armed private citizens in stadiums cause a special risk that armed LEOs do not. I'll leave this one without comment; I suspect one either believes this, or one doesn't, and that it is not changeable by argument.

3. There is no need for a gun at a stadium. Again, if that's true, then there's no need for an LEO to have one there either.

Are all stadiums equally safe? Are you equally (and completely) safe everywhere in a stadium? When you go to the bathroom? When you leave? What about on the way home; or when you arrive home? (Some will say that both you and your gun are perfectly safe if you leave your gun in your car while it's in stadium parking or parked nearby.)

Most importantly, some have implied that because they believe carry into a stadium doesn't make sense, it should be illegal; and I strongly disagree.

Others, like TennJed, have instead argued why we should voluntarily enter a stadium unarmed. So far I disagree, but I nevertheless appreciate and respect their opinions and advice.
 
Point of clarification: at least in WI and, I believe, OH, state law does not bar concealed carry in stadiums. It is, technically, legal. However, the law also grants businesses the right to bar concealed carry on their premises, and the stadiums have chosen to do so. UW Madison decided to allow concealed carry while tailgating and in the parking lots, but you can't take your weapon into the stadium itself.
 
Another thing about stadium carry.

Lots of people carry their weapon not because of violence IN the stadium but violence going back to their cars.

Keep in mind muggings won't be in front of 10,000 people, but they sure might be in a dark parking lot.

Deaf
 
Exeter said:
Does that include Safeco Field and CenturyLink Stadium?
Click to expand...

Actually, possession of firearms is LEGAL at every stadium in Washington state, if the person holds a CPL. The only time in Washington that possession of a firearm in a stadium CAN be made illegal is if a city, county or other municipality bans firearms in a stadium they operate AND a person who does not have a CPL carries there anyway.

Any non-governmental entity that leases or operates the stadium can ban firearms. However, that does not make it illegal to carry there. If you are asked to leave, and you refuse to, then you are trespassing... but there still is no firearms carrying violation.
 
Because criminals will carry their guns into stadiums, CCW permit holders should be allowed to as well. I understand that using a gun in crowded place is risky. But if it is used at point blank ranges that risk is not as great. Unless they will scan everyone to make sure no one has a gun they should allow lawful carry.
 
NavyLCDR said:
Actually, possession of firearms is LEGAL at every stadium in Washington state, if the person holds a CPL. The only time in Washington that possession of a firearm in a stadium CAN be made illegal is if a city, county or other municipality bans firearms in a stadium they operate AND a person who does not have a CPL carries there anyway.

Any non-governmental entity that leases or operates the stadium can ban firearms. However, that does not make it illegal to carry there. If you are asked to leave, and you refuse to, then you are trespassing... but there still is no firearms carrying violation.
Click to expand...

I checked on the PAFOA forums and that is also the case in Pennsylvania. WI is still refining their procedures, since their permit law is so new, but it looks like the situation there is the same. The teams that lease the four major stadiums in PA have a policy of no weapons on premises. Three of them do checks at the gate, one doesn't. The situation may be different in other states, but a quick look at the exemptions in the law that sets up your CHL system should tell you.

OK, then let me re-phrase my question for the literalists out there:

Does anyone know of a major stadium that does NOT have a No Firearms policy? I'm most curious about major stadiums that also serve alcohol. The angle of the alcohol sales seems to be the issue for most of the stadium operators, I suspect because the bulk of the alcohol sales go through walk-around vendors who can't keep track of who is getting overly intoxicated.

So my question: Major stadiums that do not have a No Firearms policy? I'll throw out one, Lambeau Field. Others?
 
Yes. A law abiding citizen is just as unlikely to go shooting people because of an argument (substitute your favorite fear based anti-argument if you like) as they are anywhere else.
 
The data that I am interested in is what stadia have had significant numbers of CC happening in them legally, and what has been the result. Whether the guns have been kept out because of a law or because of stadium owner policy, those are not the data points I'd be interested in. After all, the question is whether bad things start happening if people are carrying in football stadia.
 
The data that I am interested in is what stadia have had significant numbers of CC happening in them legally,
Click to expand...
But that is data that is physically impossible to obtain.

We can do a little research and find out in what states someone may carry in to a sporting event/venue. We could do a little more research and find out the approximate percentage of society in those states who have carry permits/licenses.
We then have to take a wild guess as to how many folks who have their permit do indeed carry, and how often, and whether they'd carry to a game.
Then we have to account for which stadiums have "no firearms" policies, and take another guess as to whether folks obey them (or even know about them).

It's not like there's a checklist as you enter about what you're carrying with you, such that we could gain reliable info.

About all we can say is that it is legal in many places, it surely is done by some people (some here have done so), and that we don't know of any instances of a lawfully-carried weapon being used illegally or causing any problem at all in any stadium anywhere.

That isn't exactly a scientific study of the situation, but you have to draw what conclusions you can from whatever information you do have, right?
 
Sam, you are right, I think, that there's no way to know with certainty how many people, exactly, have been carrying.

But we could learn, I hope, which stadia have allowed guns in. The point that I was trying to clarify is that, if a state does not prohibit CC in athletic venues, but those venues themselves prohibit it, that doesn't provide much evidence of what would happen if CC were to be allowed. This is an empirical question: what happens when people can and do CC inside stadia?

If the answer is, "The following 22 stadia have allowed CC for a combined total of 486 football games without incident," then that's a powerful data point. If the answer is, "No stadium over 10,000 seats has seen authorized CC (whether because laws or property-owner rules against it) in the last 50 years," then that data point is just missing. And we're back to prognosticating about what might happen.

But earlier in the thread, some posters argued that the data points existed. I would love to see them. Since I generally favor allowing CC, I'd love to be persuaded that my concerns about it stadia are ill-founded. If the data exist, share them, and convince me not to worry.
 
The point that I was trying to clarify is that, if a state does not prohibit CC in athletic venues, but those venues themselves prohibit it, that doesn't provide much evidence of what would happen if CC were to be allowed.
Click to expand...

O.k., but a stadium simply prohibiting CCW doesn't mean that people don't do it (legally or illegally). Here in PA, and in several other states already mentioned, their prohibition doesn't really mean much. I certainly wouldn't give it a second thought, myself.

But some would -- leading to another completely intangible point of no-data.

Perhaps it would be possible to find which stadiums search every person entering and/or use metal detectors. That would be somewhat more informative as the incidence of discovery goes up, at least a little bit, and the deterrant effect on lawful carriers could be surmised to be significant.

This is an empirical question: what happens when people can and do CC inside stadia?
Click to expand...

Well, as I said, a few things we DO in fact know:
1) It is lawful in some places.
2) People do carry there in numbers significant enough that some representative examples of that population appear here in this very thread.
3) None of us have found any reports of lawful carriers shooting anyone or creating any disturbance at a sporting event.

Some conclusions surely can be drawn.
 
convince me not to worry.
Click to expand...
Are you serous? Our rights are to be sacrificed if you are worried? Do your own legwork, and convince us TO worry.

Where are your headlines "Innocent child shot by errant CCW-holder at Stadium?" Proof doesn't work in one direction: you want us to worry about what what we think is a non-problem, first prove the problem exists. (Those who are interested in convincing you not to worry can go look for data, too.)

After you prove the problem exists (and show how often it happens), all you'll need to do is prove that a law against CCW will solve the problem, and not cause more harm to innocents (the CCWers) than to their supposed errant-shot-in-stadium victims.

And then, prove that even if all that is so, such a ban is not violative of 2A. Then, we're all convinced! :D

We can look for all the (non-existent) "empirical data" we want; but so what, if some of us believe that NO MATTER what the data says, that doesn't change our rights to self-defense and to KBA.
 
Sam, I'm not sure I follow your last post. If it's "lawful" some places (and for purposes of this discussion, carrying in violation of the property owner's rule is not "lawful," I think), what are those places? Some people have posted that there is no independent legal barrier beyond the rules of the venue, but has anyone said "___ Park allows CC"?
 
Loosedhorse, you seem to have me confused with the government. This thread just asked a question about how posters felt about CC in stadia. I responded that I thought it a hard question, and that there were certain things about a football stadium in particular that made me concerned about introducing CC there. Then there was a long discussion about whether that concern was reasonable, etc., and I explained why I had those concerns. If those posts are unconvincing to you, that's fine; I'm not seeking anything from you, so I can live with you being unpersuaded.

The thread took an interesting turn when some posters suggested that CC has been allowed in some stadia before now, to no bad effect. Since I like CC, I was hopeful that this was true. Subsequent posts were spent clarifying that "CC allowed" doesn't just mean not-independently-statutorily-barred, but also permitted by the owner of the stadium. Anyway, I'm still hopeful that someone will be able to tell us about a stadium where CC is allowed and what the record there has been.
 
1) It is lawful in some places.
2) People do carry there in numbers significant enough that some representative examples of that population appear here in this very thread.
3) None of us have found any reports of lawful carriers shooting anyone or creating any disturbance at a sporting event.

Some conclusions surely can be drawn.
Click to expand...

Some conclusions can be drawn...

but even though you led that horse to water...
 
The argument against CCL in a stadium is based on alcohol consumption and the fact that a safe shot is unlikely.

I carry where people drink daily.
I carry where it would not be wise to take a shot daily.

Doesn't mean I shouldn't carry.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
NFL (football) anti-gun????
Replies
21
Views
1K
harpethriver
H
B
  • Locked
Editorial, St. Louis Post-Dispatch
Replies
9
Views
1K
sch40
S
J
  • Locked
Close the Loopholes in the MO CCW Law...Another Panic Striken Post Dispatch Editorial
Replies
22
Views
2K
Art Eatman
A
9
  • Locked
Liberty University to allow concealed carry...
Replies
12
Views
588
TexasRifleman
T
S
  • Locked
HOME NON-CONCEALED FIREARMS???s
Replies
16
Views
964
sgt127
sgt127
Back
Top