Do I really need 2 days of Tactical Shotgun training?

[Dionysusigma]

Keep in mind, I'm not singling out just that particular course...

I finally took some time today to look at Front Sight Resort's website http://www.frontsight.com/ , and ran through the lists of the different classes they offer, including:

Combat Handgun http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmsTraining/Courses.asp?Action=View&ID=239

Tactical Shotgun http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmsTraining/Courses.asp?Action=View&ID=64

Armorer's courses http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmsTraining/Courses.asp?Action=View&ID=119

Uzi Submachinegun training. http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmsTraining/Courses.asp?Action=View&ID=86

Complete list: http://www.frontsight.com/FirearmsTraining/Courses.asp?ID=31

Most, if not all, of these classes look really informative (and fun, too). But does Averaje Joe Schmoe (AKA me) really need to learn all this stuff? Yes, I want an Uzi someday. And yes, it'll probably be a semi-only 16" barreled fixed-stock. Would I really need to take a course that teaches me to modulate the trigger of a full-auto whilst engaging targets out to 200 yards? I've got a Mossberg 590 for home defense, but will I actually need to learn how to end a hostage situation when I live alone in a 3-room apartment?

I know that the more training and skills one has, the better; but aside from personal bodyguard work for high-profile people, can such extensive training--for the ordinary people that many of us are--be justified? Are places like this what we have instead of mandatory military service at 18?

All opinions welcome...

 

[El Tejon]

Need? What's that got to do with it?

You have no need for your guns either as you have the police to protect you. Weaponry has no place in modern society so you have no reason to be studying it.

 

[444]

I have taken the course of which you speak, actually the four day version. In fact, I have taken two shotgun classes for a total of nine days of training.
Learning to run a shotgun was probably the most difficult and frustrating training I have ever done. The reason is simple. You have to handle each and every round of ammunition. There are no magazines (I know there is an AK type shotgun that takes a detachable mag but I am talking about mainstream shotguns). There are no speed loaders (I know open class three gun shooters have a speed loader but I am talking about mainstream shotguns). That being said, I don't think there is a whole lot of application for what you learn in the civilian arena. Very few people are going to get into a firefight with their home defense shotgun that requires more than eight rounds and very few people will ever need to do a select slug drill with their home defense shotguns. On the other hand, I enjoy shooting my guns and I enjoy trying to get good with my guns. So it is only natural that my idea of a vacation is to take one or more of my guns and go to a venue where I can be instructed in it's proper use and then fire a thousand rounds or so in practice with expert coaches watching my every more. You meet a lot of great people. And have a lot of fun. And if you practice and the one in a million chance worst case senario happens to you, you might be able to handle it.
Something that needs to be said about formal training classes is that if you knew someone that REALLY knew what he was talking about and that person was willing to show you the ropes. AND if you were willing to run through a thousand or more rounds of ammo to start to develop the muscle memory to learn the skills, then no, there is no reason to attend the class. However, very few people will ever do that. They will try to figure things out for themselves (and always insist they know what they are doing), they will practice very little. And they will never learn anywhere near what you can learn in a formal class environment.
If I didn't have much money, and was smart enough to realize that I dont' know everything and wanted to take a formal shooting class. I would spend my money on a handgun class. For the armed citizen, this is the weapon most likely to be carried and possibly used for personal defense. It also requires the most knowlege and practice. Next would be a rifle/carbine class. Last would be a shotgun class.

 

[Jeff White]

First off, those courses aren't extensive training. They are really just an intro into the skills you need to be proficient with your weapons. Like 444 said, you are just beginning to develop muscle memory and reflexive responses at the end of those courses. It takes hours of practice to maintain those skills. You are never finished training. Learning never stops.

I have had formal carbine training through the Army, the Illinois Police Training and Standards Board Mobile Training Unit, Jim Crews and Pat Rogers. I teach patrol carbine and tactical carbine for two law enforcement agencies here. And next month I'm heading back over to Indiana to take Pat Rogers' class again.

If you just take one class then put your weapon up and never train with it again, you'll be miles ahead of most people out there, who never train. But will you be ready to handle a deadly force encounter? Probably not.

As for what training you should take, you probably need to look at your lifestyle and decide what you reasonably may encounter and then put your resources(or the majority of them) there. Training is expensive and time consuming and even Tier One military units have to prioritize.

Jeff

 

[Trebor]

I've decided to prioritize on handgun training. Why? Because I legally carry a handgun every day and that makes it the most likely firearm I'd ever use for self defense.

I have had some limited shotgun training and I will probably do some more in the future, along with some rifle training, but the bulk of my training buget will be spend on handgun training relevant to CCW issues.

Now, this is what works for me. I'm a private citizen, not a LEO or soldier, and your needs may be different then mine.

 

[tetleyb]

Shotgun Training. Hmmmmmmmmmm...

Gunsite 260 5 days
NRA Shotgun Instructor 5 days
Tactical Shotgun Operator 3 days
Tactical Shotgun 3 days
Intro to Combat Shotgun 2 days

And I shall be going to more, as soon as my life calms down.

You can never get too much training on ANY weapons system you may have.

 

[pax]

Dionysusigma ~

If you ever are involved in a defensive shooting, I can't imagine that you would be standing there at the end of it saying, "I wish I'd had less training."

Think about it.

Not only does training help prepare you to cope with whatever nightmare situation might cause you to pull out a gun, it also gives you a significant leg up on your legal defense afterward. Not only can you document that you were responsible enough to take training similar to that required of the local police (and thus are not open to charges of criminal negligence in failing to get training), but you also find a network of people able to testify on your behalf if you ever need them to do so.

Once you've taken a class you will discover just how much you don't know. As a lifelong autodidact, I was absolutely shocked when I took my first class and realized that shooting skills just do not naturally lend themselves to an autodidact's style of learning. (And some of the most frightening people I've worked with since are old guys who have taught themselves everything they know about gun handling and safety ... if you are self-taught, people out there, please please please, learn and pay attention to the dang safety rules. They are not optional!)

Finally, of course, there's the fun factor. If you can afford it, a formal class can be a heckuva lotta fun even if you don't think you'll ever need the skills presented. There's really nothing else like it.

pax

The only one of life's great pleasures of which there is never any satiety is learning. Anything else you do for your delight which you do long enough will eventually become tiresome, but learning never tires. Unfortunately, it has become fashionable to regard learning as a tool rather than an end in itself. It is customary to think that one learns "X" in order to do "Y." This may be true, but it is only a trivial aspect of the matter. Learning of any sort should be regarded as an end in itself, because it is the one attribute that lasts forever and can never be taken from you. -- Jeff Cooper

 

[JT74]

Two days of shotgun training well hardly prepare you to end a hostage situation in any environment. What it will do is start to give you the basics of shotgun operation and if you will potentially be using a shogtun in a stressful situation (self defense) you will want to be well grounded in it's operation.

Since you are using a shogtun for home defense I would strongly recommend taking some quality shogtun training, just as I would recommend quality handgun training for anyone that carries a handgun.

I have taken shotgun classes at Gunsite and can tell you it is well worth it. You will learn exactly what you can and can't do with a shotgun and by the end of the week you will know how to run your shotgun without conscious thought. Training will also help you from a liability perspective should you ever have to use deadly force.

And of course not only do you get some exceptional training, you get to have a great time as well.

 

[El Tejon]

Oh, pax, you and your training. I have common sense. Isn't that good enough?

 

[atek3]

yes, insufficient training will leave you low speed and high drag. Thousands of dollars of training and guns will leave you 't3h d34dly'

atek3

Tetley: you might want to add the caveat that the needs of a police person are different from that of a private citizen.

 

[Mute]

Would you rather leave your safety up to chance?

 

[Sawdust]

Alot of good information here...it should be heeded.

A few months ago I bought an 870, and since I was a handgunner I thought that some training might be in order. However, like you, I thought that two days had to be a overkill.

Well, that perception was proved to be wrong. I recently completed the two-day Level One Tactical Shotgun at West Coast Tactical, and those two days were crammed with information, drills and range time. Just for the basics.

Fantastic class taught by excellent, knowledgeable teachers...very well worth the time. In fact, a necessity if you want to operate the shotgun efficiently and safely.

No affiliation...blah, blah, blah.

Sawdust

 

[Paul Gomez]

Training, smaining, I don't need no stinkin' training.

All's you need is a gage and a box of buckshot.

Heck, you don't even need the box of buckshot.

You can just skeer the bad guys away with the sound of racking your 12gage.

Why, back in my day, we didn't need no mamby-pamby "training".

We was men and we walked uphill in the snow, both ways......

So there.

 

[GEM]

I've an interesting take on it, Paul. After an excellent two day shotgun class from Steve Moses and a three gun match or two, I decided the pump shotgun is not going to be my primary home defense gun.

I'm much more practiced with handguns and find my AR much easier to handle at home then the shotgun.

It's a great gun and certainly quite an effective weapon but you really need to train with it. Saving a hostage drills are quite fun. Nothing like peeling off the hostage but seeing the wad past your cardboard family member in the nose. Federal Tactical Buckshot was the load.

I also found the Double Barrel Shotgun at the mystery gun stage at the NTI, in the dark, with the big doofus flashlight and no place to put your ammo making me wish for my G-19 and Surefire. I had to butt stroke one target as I fired my two rounds at other BGs.

I hear so BS from shotgun lovers who never train. I mentioned to my macho untrained friends that a shotgun pattern spreads roughly 1 inch per yard (It doesn't fill known space?), that they went to test it to prove me wrong. Hahah.

 

[Paul Gomez]

GEM,

I think we're on the same page as to the utility of the shotgun. I cannot think of a situation where I'd rather have my M870 over my AR. Shotguns are fun and I enjoy working with them, but a nice, short AR is a much better general use longarm.

 

[Dave Williams]

well,

Many of us don't have the option of a .223. I have to use an 870 at work, so I train with an 870.

I just took a wanted felon at gunpoint two days ago with my work 870, from about 6ft, using Rob Haught's CQB stance/technique. My recent training paid off, in that I was very comfortable manipulating and using the shotgun, much more so than in the past. I will be reaching for the 870 much more than in the past.

Train with what you intend to fight with.

GEM, didn't you like the way the shotgun slammed the Teds to the gound in that scenario? You can't beat the close range stopping power of the shotgun.

Dave Williams

 

[Paul Gomez]

Dave,

Agreed. I'm not saying the shotgun is useless, just that, given the choice, I'd go with a AR. Training with your issued guns just makes sense and if more officers got decent shotgun training, they'd be much more likely to pull the things out of the vehicle.

Around here, you fire 8 rounds of 12g in the academy and the 'take-home' for most officers is that they never, ever want to touch a shotgun again. Because of antiquated training, officers are ignoring what could be the most effective firearm at their disposal [ARs are PODA with some agencies and verbotten with others].

I've heard nothing but good about Rob Haught and am looking forward to getting into a training class with him this year or next. His over-the-shoulder gun positioning reminds me of how we used to run the M249 in MOUT training during my army days.

 

[The_Antibubba]

If you're gonna have it, you should train with it

If I own it, I want to know not just what i can do with it, but what it can and cannot do.

I've got a lever-action .357 I'm breaking in, but I think it will eventually be my primary HD gun.

 

[Average Guy]

Do I really need 2 days of Tactical Shotgun training?

No. You need many more days than that. I took the F$ 2-day course about a year and a half ago (my pic is actually on their Web site for the course--that and $5 will get me a coffee at Starbucks) and learned a lot. Plus I had a great time. One of the most important things I learned, as pax said, was how much I didn't know. Training is like visiting the ocean for the first time: you kinda think, "Well, there's certainly more there than I expected." (Where's the icon for sarcastic understatement?) Did I mention I had a great time?

Oh, you guys--talking about Rob Haught. If I don't get to go to his SoCal course in August, I'll be one Unhappy Average Guy.

 

[GEM]

Dave, I actually thought the stage was great and I did love the gun. I almost want to buy one - hammerless though. I did love blasting the Teds off the table.

I have no problem using my Defender 1300 if I must. I like to shoot it. I just think for moi, that if I want to use a long gun, I like my AR better. Especially if I'm in my bathrobe with no pockets.

I decided that it is the home long arm and geekishly tricked it out with nights sights and a Surefire.

What do you all think of semi shotguns vs. pumps - an old debate? I know with superb training I can work the pump as well - sure! But I don't carry a pump Glock.

 

[Obiwan]

That two days should accomplish...at a minumum;

1. The loss of any bad habits you have now

2. Provide you with a template for your personal training time going forward

Plus...you get to walk around with loaded waepons and be oh so tactical

 

[Tim-L]

Jeff is correct. Two days of *any* training cannot be considered extensive. What it can do, however, is introduce you to concepts, techniques and training methods so you, the student, have the tools necessary to continue to develop on your own.

Regarding the AR v. 12ga, I prefer the AR15 platform due to its ergonomics, ease of handling/manipulation, ammunition capacity, and range. However, the 12 ga shotgun is unparalleled when it comes to versatility and power. It is also the most common long arm available to patrolmen who may not be able to employ the AR platform due to departmental policies.

The shotgun is also politically correct (or moreso than the AR), and the only choice for Californians that don't already have a legally owned AR15 type weapon.

Of the common platforms available (pistol, carbine, subgun and shotgun), I am proficient in all but weakest in the shotgun. I am hosting Rob Haught in Southern CA in August in an attempt to remedy that, and rekindle my relationship with my 870.

For those interested, please check the link below or email me for details.
tlau (at) streetpro.com


(PDF:50kB download)
(Adobe Acrobat Reader Required)

 

[VaughnT]

Actually, I don't even own the ubiquitous 870. I use one at work, but my HD SG is a Mossy 500c 20g with a too-long barrel.

As I am most practiced and proficient with the pistols, that is what I will use should the wicked come this way. An AR would be nice, but I would have a hard time explaining that expenditure, and really don't want one. Sounds un-tactical to say, but there it is, nonetheless.

Personally, training isn't so much about learning to handle a gun as it is about learning just how much you don't know about fighting in general. My recent experience, just one class with Suarez, opened my eyes in a big way and I'm now looking for even more training if I can find it. Where's OPS at?

What I would suggest is that you take an honest look at your situation and focus your training on those aspects that seem most likely to occur. For example, you are licensed to carry concealed......therefore get pistol training. Example 2, you might be licensed but don't carry often or regularly, get empty-hand fight training.

Maximize your return on the investment. No training is going to be a complete loss, but you can get a lot more out of the training if it's something you can put to use on a daily basis, like pistol combat techniques.

 

[Paul Gomez]

Vaughn,

OPS main base is Sebring, FL. I'm out of Baton Rouge, Louisiana. We do mobile classes all over the place. Andy was up in Michigan last weekend and I was in Lake Charles, LA. I don't think we've done many classes in SC, but if you are interested, drop me a line and I'm sure we can hook something up.

 

[tetleyb]

Atek3,

I agree and I disagree. If I were a "private person" (please don't take offense to the label) and I carried a handgun and/or had a shotgun in my house for home defense, I would train just as hard. That is me, I am weird and strange, and admit it.

However, you are correct. I train other police officers on handguns, shotguns, rifles, and subguns. I also train my departments SWAT Team in firearms/tactics. I also testify as an expert witness, in officer involved shootings; both criminal and civil court. So yes, I go to and I get, as much training as I can.

Nothing worse then having an instructor stand up in front of class and not be able to perform the drill, they want the students to perform. I get wary at courses I go to, when the instructor explains the course of fire, however they don't demonstrate it themselves.

By the way, I believe the shotgun to be the greatest CQB weapon out there. Just a personal opinion.