Do I want an AR?

[Qball16]

Hello all,

I'm looking for insight from you all to help me decide whether I want to build an AR. The genesis of this idea comes from my first deer hunt this year with my very target oriented .308. It's a bolt Savage with a thick, 24" barrel and a 5-25x scope so it weighs about 11 pounds. This gun is great at the bench but it was certainly more than I wanted for hiking into my tree stand. I kept the scope at 5x the entire time and probably could have used more like a 3x in the thick forest where I will be hunting.
So, I've decided that a much lighter gun is in my future. I also like the idea of building an AR from the thousands of options out there. I also like the idea of a multi-purpose gun, fun to use at the range and for hunting. I thought that the bolt .308 would be that gun, but it's looking more like a range-only tool, which is fine.
The AR that I would build would be a 6.8 SPC, at least to start. It would have to be in the 5.5 lb range without a scope to make me happy. I know that I will have to pay for this, and that's fine. I've always been one to build my stuff, computers, flies for fishing, fly rods, I load my ammo. This tinkering aspect of the AR really appeals to me. The playing army man, or tacti-cool aspects do not appeal to me at all, so that's not part of my line of thinking. So I guess the big questions, before investing a few thousand dollars on an AR, are these. Please give me your opinions on these questions.

1. Is the compromise between best AR deer hunting round and a more powerful, more traditional round for deer hunting a big deal? If I was to buy a lightweight bolt, it would probably be a 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor or 260, which seem like a sweet spot for low recoil vs energy. My hunting distances will be within 200 yards.

2. Are the ergonomics of a lightweight AR good for deer hunting. I will have to make some compromises with the stock and grips to make the weight that I'm shooting for, do you think that I will be disappointed with the comfort of the gun?

3. Will I be happy with the gun at the range? I love making ammo and testing at the range. Can I expect the AR platform, with a quality but light 16" barrel, to deliver at least MOA results from the bench if not better?

Another caveat. I'm Left eye dominate, so I shoot lefty. This makes finding the exact gun that I want pretty difficult, unless I go custom to a certain degree. This could be a nod to the AR. I can pretty easily trick one out to be lefty friendly. I don't care about brass flying in front of my face, as long as it's not hitting me. I own both right and left hand bolts and a few guns that are ambidextrous. I have enough experience to know that I want a gun that's set up for left hand. If not an AR, I'll probably end up getting a dedicated, lightweight bolt gun for hunting. I could always get a cheaper, heavier AR to tinker with later. I just want to feel people out as to whether an AR in 6.8 SPC could be the ultimate deer rifle while also being more versatile than a featherweight bolt that I wouldn't look at unless I'm developing hunting loads or hunting.

Thanks!

 

[LocoGringo]

I own exactly what you are describing and love it. It's a great hunting gun platform for deer and will perform exactly as you desire at your 200 yard distances and beyond.

There really isn't a "compromise" because the 6.8 SPC recoils so lightly compared to calibers based on the .308, even if using lightweight bullets in the 7mm-08 and 6.5mm calibers. There is more powder behind those bullets, so there will be more recoil. Edit to add: I also have a bolt gun in 7mm-08 and even with reduced recoil rounds, it recoils harder than the 6.8.

Ergonomics are fantastic for an AR in general, so a hunting situation doesn't really change that. Plus, Stag Arms makes left handed specific AR rifles so there can be NO compromise in ergonomics if you wish to go that direction.

I have 2 6.8 SPC rifles. One is a 16" that is suppressed and has a twist rate to load REALLY heavy bullets for subsonic use and the other is a 12.5" SBR that is perfect for home defense use with a suppressor. I would not hesitate to use either of them for hunting and have used the 16" to take a doe at a lazed 55 yards through the neck. The 12.5" SBR is sub-MOA at 100 yards with my handloaded 90 grain TNT bullets and the 16" barrel is right around 1"-1.25" 5-shot groups with my hand loaded Hornady 120 SSTs.

If you decide to go that route, I don't think you'll be disappointed. It's a great platform and a great caliber. I think the combination maximizes the potential of both the AR and the 6.8 caliber. Good luck.

 

[z7]

Yes you want an AR "modern sporting rifle"

You can make it work. i like an optic of some kind for hunting so 5.5lbs is, in my opinion optimistic. an AR can be what you want it to be. they make left handed versions, and every option you could want to pay for.
My 2 AR's will shoot 1.5 moa all day with cheap ammo, one is sub moa with good handloads. the other is new and i have not spent much time working on load development for it.

Get a good trigger, optic and barrel and have fun

 

[Qball16]

Loco and z7, great insight. much appreciated. z7, I would be putting a scope on it, the 5.5 lbs is the target weight before the optic. I know it's possible, but I'll have to pay for it. That's why I'm trying to get as much insight as to whether this is the route that I want to take before I open my wallet. I have very little experience with the AR platform. My first shot from one left me with a perfect round brass burn on my cheek! I could go as far as getting a left ejecting upper and bolt, but I don't think that it is necessary. I don't want to limit my options that much. A built in deflector and lefty controls should be sufficient.

 

[LocoGringo]

I put a Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x44 illuminated scope on top of my 16" barreled AR and it's a match made in heaven. It would DEFINITELY fit what you want to do with your project.

For sub-MOA fun, you've got to get the right barrel though. Ask me which one I recommend...

 

[Qball16]

That looks like a good optic choice. I have that same scope but in 6-24x on my .225 Winchester, only used at the range so far. It's a good combination of pract and tact.

 

[Qball16]

Oh, and what barrel would you recommend?

 

[LocoGringo]

For the barrel, AR15 Performance. He's a STRONG proponent and has been developing the round for a long time. Top quality, accurate AND affordable.

Wilson Combat and Bison Armory are also good choices.

 

[Qball16]

Cool, I was looking at his barrels, not that there are that many choices of makers. I think the one I was looking at was the "lightweight tactical" or something like that in SPC II. It's 1.5 lbs so it fits my light weight requirement and I never shoot at a high rate of fire, so hopefully the thin profile won't be a problem. So many variables.........

Most profiles seemed to be out of stock at the moment. Did you get the SPC II or ARP version? Seems like he may have tweaked the chamber or head space just a bit for the ARP, not at all sure of the specifics. But with hand loading, it could make a big difference.

 

[LocoGringo]

Honestly, I couldn't tell you. I bought the upper used and don't know how old the barrel is. What I do know is that it is VERY durable and accurate. The one I have from him is the 12.5" SBR. My 16" is from Bison Armory.

I also have 2 of his 5.56 barrels...1 of them on my 3-gun rifle. If you're considering building, it's worth the wait to get one of his barrels.

A good trigger will go a long way to helping accuracy as well.

 

[243winxb]

whether an AR in 6.8 SPC could be the ultimate deer rifle

A 115 gr bullet at 2200 fps will kill a deer. But just seems to light to me.

 

[WestKentucky]

I feel the same way about rifles as you describe. I have a rem700 in .270 that I have used for deer since I was a teenager, but just recently finished a 6.8AR. I have had both rifles at the range and tried to give a fair comparison for hunting. My AR is a heavy barrel target gun, but it weighs about the same as the .270 does overall. The bolt rifle carries on a sling a lot better, but the AR is much handier and quicker to target, even with similar scopes. The 6.8 is not nearly as fast as a .270 but at 300 yds or less no critter would really know the difference in what just hit it. My AR is also evenly matched with the bolt rifle for accuracy, but that AR puts out a second round much more quickly if a shot was at a moving deer or perhaps even a big bull elk where you want it anchored QUICK before it runs off and slides down a mountain. Next year my deer gun is the 6.8. My 6.8 is absolutely my hog gun if I ever get to go now that I live in hog land. I would trust it to black bear as well, but given options there I'm taking the .270 just to have ability to drive a 150 gr bullet rather than a 120. I don't want to take any chances on critters which make a living using weapons attached to their bodies.

BUT if I were in the position your in I would be seriously looking at a Savage Axis or Ruger American in .243. 300 bucks gets you a lot of rifle for the money in those packages.

 

[Qball16]

Yup, it's a debate for sure. If I were to go the bolt route, and I was pinching pennies, Ruger makes an American left hand SS that weighs 6 lbs in 7mm-08. I think the trigger would be a little nicer than the non-accutrigger Savage Axis, but that's an assumption. I really like my target accutrigger on the Savage .308 and I don't think I would get a Savage without one. I shy away from the .243 because I know I'll end up shooting thousands of rounds at the range. I don't want to shoot it out just as I find the "perfect" load. I know, it's dumb, but I'm like that. I have as much fun making them as I do shooting them. Thanks for the input, keep it coming!

 

[Jackal]

You can get a 6.whatever AR down into the 6lb region quite easily.

 

[JohnMc]

1. Is the compromise between best AR deer hunting round and a more powerful, more traditional round for deer hunting a big deal? If I was to buy a lightweight bolt, it would probably be a 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor or 260, which seem like a sweet spot for low recoil vs energy. My hunting distances will be within 200 yards.

2. Are the ergonomics of a lightweight AR good for deer hunting. I will have to make some compromises with the stock and grips to make the weight that I'm shooting for, do you think that I will be disappointed with the comfort of the gun?

3. Will I be happy with the gun at the range? I love making ammo and testing at the range. Can I expect the AR platform, with a quality but light 16" barrel, to deliver at least MOA results from the bench if not better?

My two cents:
1 - Not a big deal for deer. It looks like Wisconsin regs say you can use .22 centerfire and up, so the deer up there must not be like British Columbia-sized monsters. FWIW, I wish the WSSMs or 30 RAR hadn't petered out so much; those are darned good deer cartridges that fit the AR-15 size.
2 - AR ergos are pretty good and will depend a lot on what buttstock, grip and handguard you choose. They can be front heavy, but you control that in your build.
3 - That depends mostly on the barrel you pick and the trigger as well. One really nice thing about ARs is you have a ton of options, not so much in other platforms. Budget is pretty much the only constraint. For a light weight barrel, mag dump after mag dump may not help accuracy.

 

[Mike C2]

I'm a huge fan of the 6.8 and it's the gun that goes everywhere with me in the jeep. You will be pleased as punch with the 6.8 in an AR platform in the field or at the range. Check out 68forums.com for all sorts of info concerning barrel manufacturers, parts for ultralite guns, handloading data, etc.

 

[tuj]

The AR is very customizable. I thought I wanted one too. Well I built a target AR, 20" quality bull barrel, Geissele trigger, the works, shoots sub-MOA with match ammo. Then I decided I wanted a zombie-SHTF gun just-in-case. Built one of those, 16" pinned FH, light contour, fore-end quad rail and vertical fore-grip with flashlight. Honestly, I didn't really come to like either gun; still have both but they don't really 'speak' to me. They just go "SPRONG" every time I sent rounds down range. The mags are cumbersome at the bench; you have to use 10 rounders if you don't want the mag to be the lowest point.

The AR is a great platform. But you really need to think about if it is what you want. Yes there are lots of calibers available and such, but I would much rather shoot my next deer with the same 5-shot semi-auto Remington .308 that I've carried for years.

 

[Browning]

Left handed 6.8 SPC?

Sounds like a Stag Arms to me.

https://www.stagarms.com/model-5hl-6-8mm/

There are various options, but that one was a wrong handed 6.8 and it looked like the lightest and that sounds like what you're going for (a lightweight 6.8 to top with a scope and maybe end up somewhere north of 7 lbs). Buy a stripped lower and build to your own specs or just buy a complete lower.

6.8 SPC works great on both deer and hogs (then again so does .223 Rem). I had a Stag 6.8 for several years and had a few deer and a bunch of hogs on the one I had. A buddy of mine bought it for his daughter, threw on a can and now she's running around the woods every season terrorizing the local wildlife with it.

That Stag Model 7 worked alright for me, my buddy and now her.

This is the last one she got.

 

[d2wing]

No harm in trying it but I would go for a light bolt in a better caliber. I hunted a few years with an AR due to an injury. It worked well, I shot a huge 250 lb buck with it no problem with a .223 55 gr SP. The drawbacks were lack of power for long range and bad angle shots, but really this did not come into play on my hunts. The other thing was the ergos. The AR is bulky and not well suited to holding comfortably for long period on a deer stands. Also you can't easily rotate the rifle in you hands. When I was able to use a higher power rifle I went to a Tikka T3 in 7-08 and like it a lot. It is easer to handle, light and has more power and range than anything you can put in a AR15. This is just my opinion for how I hunt. Nothing wrong with the AR for deer. I would use an AR again if I wanted.

 

[LocoGringo]

A 115 gr bullet at 2200 fps will kill a deer. But just seems to light to me.

I don't know where you get your information, but this is grossly incorrect. A factory loaded Hornady 120 grain SST gets 2460 FPS from a 16" barrel at the muzzle. Handloaders get more velocity.

I wouldn't want to use your numbers either as they would be irresponsible, but they are NOT representative of actual numbers or true. IF they are real numbers, they might be from early factory loaded ammo from Remington which is generally accepted as the worst ammo made for 6.8.

 

[Qball16]

Hey, thank you everyone for all the input. Opinion is split pretty much right down the middle, but I'm more educated now to make a decision. If I had to guess my path now it would probably be a cheaper, lightweight bolt for deer AND a less expensive ar build for tinkering with. Having both is starting to seem almost inevitable. Thanks again.

 

[Qball16]

LocoGringo, I think 243winxb was probably referring to velocity out at my expected hunting ranges. His numbers seem like they would be about right according to a quick hypothetical round in Quickload and Quicktarget at about 125-150 yards.

 

[Gtscotty]

A 115 gr bullet at 2200 fps will kill a deer. But just seems to light to me.

Sounds like 300 BLK ballistics, not carbine length 6.8 to me. I killed a few deer with 110gr Accubonds @ 2660fps out of an 18" 6.8, and it worked great. A lot of folks run 120gr SST's around 2500 fps for deer and hogs.

I think the OP is on the right track, if I were going to hunt with an AR again, it would be a lightweight free floated rig with a 16" - 18" ARP (or maybe Bison) barrel.

 

[243winxb]

6.8 SPC,

I would guess the shorter 16" bbl vs the longer 24" makes for a velocity loss? Hodgdon data. View attachment 226220

 

[LocoGringo]

Well, 243winxb, did you just pick those powders out of a hat or are they based on some preference you have derived from experience in loading 6.8 SPC?

H335 is used SOME in loading for 6.8, but neither of those powders is optimal for 6.8. AA2200, H322, 1680, RL7 and RL10 are the most commonly used. There are a couple more that I'm forgetting, but with AA2200, I'm able to duplicate Hornady's 2460 fps factory 120 grain loading out of my 16" barrel without pushing pressures and that's with a fast 1:7 twist barrel that is designed to stabilize a 200 grain Woodleigh bullet intended for subsonic use. In fact, that is where I actually do use the H4895 powder for 6.8 SPC...to make my subsonic ammo.

It sounds like the OP has made his decision already, but false information based on ignorance to marginalize a great deer and hog round irks me a bit. It's a very effective round within 300 yards that optimizes the potential of the AR platform rifle which can be an even better choice for smaller and younger shooters than a .243 because it provides less recoil and the platform is FAR more adjustable with a collapsible stock than a standard bolt action rifle.