Do the police carry FULL AUTO weapons?
- Thread starter elano
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my dept only authorizes FAs for our SWAT team. Our K9 officers carry 14 in shotguns. Other than that, no other dept employee has class 3 weapons. I do know of several other depts in az that issue FA weapons to officers other than those who are on the SWAT teams.
I did also take the glock armorers course a few years back. The instructor told us there are several depts throughout the us that issue the glock 18 as their standard issue handgun
I did also take the glock armorers course a few years back. The instructor told us there are several depts throughout the us that issue the glock 18 as their standard issue handgun
Jim Watson
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A deputy friend had a Thompson obtained by telling the Sheriff that he would pay for it if the department would order it on a county purchase order and issue it exclusively back to him. The Sheriff was agreeable so my friend had a lot of fun for $250. That was over 20 years ago. We are more restrictive, now.
ny32182
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I'll go out on a limb and say that I can't think of any situation in civilian life where full auto is needed, or even makes a good first choice, to solve any self defense scenario.
What is the most insane domestic law enforcement situation anyone can think of? LA bank robbery? Even there, would it have been a good idea for the police to return full auto fire? Not likely. If it is not useful even in a once-in-a-generation scenario like that, what is it, other than a liability? (I think I know the answer)
What is the most insane domestic law enforcement situation anyone can think of? LA bank robbery? Even there, would it have been a good idea for the police to return full auto fire? Not likely. If it is not useful even in a once-in-a-generation scenario like that, what is it, other than a liability? (I think I know the answer)
txhoghunter
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The only time I could understand the use of a FA weapon from a LE perspective would be in the hands of a SWAT entry team. Going into what could quickly turn into a close quarters battle, a FA weapon is necessary. For longer range engagements, like the North Hollywood shootout, even those trained with a FA weapon would know to keep it on semi.
Well, in germany Policeofficers are issuet with a FA MP-5 per car. But I heard that they are not trained very well with ( shooting them selfs with it due wrong handling). Also the police's budget is getting cut down constantly. Maybe our LEO's will get limitet to pistols only (exept SWAT).
100% agreed. Even in LE when needing to go into a CQB situation, there are too many liabilities using FA.
txhoghunter
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I don't see this happening. The North Hollywood shootout is a big reason that officers began being issued rifles. Being in a gunfight against a high powered rifle with a pistol is not a good way to protect themselves or the public. However, many departments instead of providing the rifle, will give the officers guidelines that they must follow in buying one for themselves (I believe Dallas PD is Colt and Rock River).
And then the officers must qualify with their provided rifles of course.
HorseSoldier
Member
My department's SWAT guys have full auto, department issue weapons. Carbine qualified officers can carry semi auto ARs or other semi auto black rifles off an approved list, subject to armorer inspection and certification -- this can include SBRs if the officer does the usual NFA paperwork same as everyone else. Patrol officers do have department issued SBS's that belong to the department not individual.
I'm not an expert on the totality of SWAT and tac unit operations but suspect that full auto is almost never used in actual operations. Besides risk of litigation from stray rounds and such, there's just limited need for it in competently done surgical CQB/CQC whether it is by the military or LE.
As for general issue of full auto weapons to all patrol officers, I think I can hear a supervisor in the city's legal or risk management department setting down his coffee cup and stating, "I just sensed a grave disturbance in the force, as if the entire municipal budget just cried out in litigious terror."
I'm not an expert on the totality of SWAT and tac unit operations but suspect that full auto is almost never used in actual operations. Besides risk of litigation from stray rounds and such, there's just limited need for it in competently done surgical CQB/CQC whether it is by the military or LE.
As for general issue of full auto weapons to all patrol officers, I think I can hear a supervisor in the city's legal or risk management department setting down his coffee cup and stating, "I just sensed a grave disturbance in the force, as if the entire municipal budget just cried out in litigious terror."
hapidogbreath
Member
LEO for going on 17 Years....Started with the 92F and an 870 in the trunk. Now have a PXStorm in 40. as a sidearm and a .40 Storm (Beretta) in the trunk. Why bring a pistol caliber "rifle" to a gun fight??? Most of the guys I work with have trouble qualifying with the duty pistol the 2 times we go to the range. SRT ( SWAT )goes once a month. Some of them can"t shoot either. Give me a SIG 220 or my old USMC issue 1911 and a semi auto .223 or M1A and I'll be fine. No need for FA JMHO.
I have to agree with the mantra that 'less is more', particularly with regard to the application of FA in anything but a battlefield, suppressing fire situation. It is a proven fact that well-placed, single shot fire has much greater lethal economy than FA, in most any circumstance that is not battlefield 'en masse'. For local LE to apply FA in virtually any circumstance except the most extreme would be an ethical and likely legal headache of major proportions.
JohnBiltz
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I could see an entry team wanting 3 round burst capability.
Whiskey11
Member
Local SWAT team is issued Colt Commandos with Full Auto. I have seen one, and was not impressed by the fit and finish for a "Colt." When this officer is on patrol he has to have it with him, so he leaves his Bushmaster at home.
Not sure as to why other than an intimidation thing. It doesn't take long for word to get around that the SWAT team has full auto and I'm sure it sends shivers down the spines of the ill informed thugs and dirt bags that see Police on a daily basis. I guess my buddy did mention that in a close quarters engagement full auto is nice since you can put down a fairly heavy volume of fire if a threat needs to be eliminated quickly but beyond that he said "It's really not that great, it's one of those things that you do once or twice for the sheer grin of it, but beyond that it's a waste of money."
He did mention that the Mp5 is fun to shoot in Full Auto. He even said it was "like watering the lawn, you just point and pull the trigger and a ton of rounds go down range and you are empty."
Not sure as to why other than an intimidation thing. It doesn't take long for word to get around that the SWAT team has full auto and I'm sure it sends shivers down the spines of the ill informed thugs and dirt bags that see Police on a daily basis. I guess my buddy did mention that in a close quarters engagement full auto is nice since you can put down a fairly heavy volume of fire if a threat needs to be eliminated quickly but beyond that he said "It's really not that great, it's one of those things that you do once or twice for the sheer grin of it, but beyond that it's a waste of money."
He did mention that the Mp5 is fun to shoot in Full Auto. He even said it was "like watering the lawn, you just point and pull the trigger and a ton of rounds go down range and you are empty."
paramedic70002
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Back almost 25 years ago I was a brand new Deputy Sheriff, process server, for my County. One day, our eldest road Deputy (in his 60s) was involved in a car crash. One of the other Deputies was bringing his trunk stuff in the squad room as I was preparing my papers for the day's work. I saw a personally owned very old full auto Thompson with a 100 round drum.
On another occasion, and another 'old' Deputy, I saw a 12 inch double barreled 12 gauge shotgun that the Deputy used as a 'persuader' in some situations.
On another occasion, and another 'old' Deputy, I saw a 12 inch double barreled 12 gauge shotgun that the Deputy used as a 'persuader' in some situations.
mljdeckard
Member
Look at it this way.
Even if they are allowed to have them, when is it a good idea for them to actually use FA fire? They are much more concerned with unintended innocent bystanders getting hit and what is on the other side of walls. They will focus much more on making sure that every shot counts. As was mentioned before, even in the North Hollywood shootout, FA would have been a bad idea, even when they were under fire from sustained FA.
Even my soldiers, I tell them to leave the happy switch alone most of the time. I want them to learn to place shots correctly. If they need to use burst or auto for suppressive fire, that is a different task that LE or civilians are highly unlikely to encounter. (It's not all that common in a war either.)
Even if they are allowed to have them, when is it a good idea for them to actually use FA fire? They are much more concerned with unintended innocent bystanders getting hit and what is on the other side of walls. They will focus much more on making sure that every shot counts. As was mentioned before, even in the North Hollywood shootout, FA would have been a bad idea, even when they were under fire from sustained FA.
Even my soldiers, I tell them to leave the happy switch alone most of the time. I want them to learn to place shots correctly. If they need to use burst or auto for suppressive fire, that is a different task that LE or civilians are highly unlikely to encounter. (It's not all that common in a war either.)
JDBoardman
Member
I don't understand why ANY domestic police agency should have, carry or use full automatic weapons. I suppose it is the desire to have bigger and badder toys than the other side. How about we start issuing area fire weapons (grenade launchers, mortars, howitzers, Reaper drones with Hellfire missles, etc) so the cops will be able to outgun the bad guys.
From what I have seen, frankly most LEO's would have a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn from the inside3. Maybe they "qualify" annually, but it seems that the occurence of "we fired 40 rounds and hit the miscreat twice (too bad about the 2-year old child we hit three blocks away, but we got the baed guy)" is more and more common. Even when I was an infantry office in the 'Nam, the best and most effective use for full auto fire was as supression fire to make the other guys keep their heads down. Single round aimed fire is far more effective than "pray and spray".
Frankly, I think the idea of police marksmanship became an oxymoron with the advent of the "wondernine" high cap plastic pistol. When the officer had a 6-round revolver with a pouch of speedloaders, he had to make his shots count.
The worst firearms discipline I regularly see is by LEO's; they ignore the four rules, do not control the muzzle, and get the fur up on their backs (and look for payback opportunities) if their failings are brought to their attention. Obviously, this does not apply to ALL LEO's, but you all know the offenders in your own agencies.
And along the same rant - why do tax collectors feel they deserve to be armed? What earthly justification is there for the IRS, BATF, Customs, etc to be armed? Isn't that what the federal police agencies (FBI, Federal Marshals Service, Postal Inspectors) are for?
From what I have seen, frankly most LEO's would have a hard time hitting the broad side of a barn from the inside3. Maybe they "qualify" annually, but it seems that the occurence of "we fired 40 rounds and hit the miscreat twice (too bad about the 2-year old child we hit three blocks away, but we got the baed guy)" is more and more common. Even when I was an infantry office in the 'Nam, the best and most effective use for full auto fire was as supression fire to make the other guys keep their heads down. Single round aimed fire is far more effective than "pray and spray".
Frankly, I think the idea of police marksmanship became an oxymoron with the advent of the "wondernine" high cap plastic pistol. When the officer had a 6-round revolver with a pouch of speedloaders, he had to make his shots count.
The worst firearms discipline I regularly see is by LEO's; they ignore the four rules, do not control the muzzle, and get the fur up on their backs (and look for payback opportunities) if their failings are brought to their attention. Obviously, this does not apply to ALL LEO's, but you all know the offenders in your own agencies.
And along the same rant - why do tax collectors feel they deserve to be armed? What earthly justification is there for the IRS, BATF, Customs, etc to be armed? Isn't that what the federal police agencies (FBI, Federal Marshals Service, Postal Inspectors) are for?
RockyMtnTactical
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They don't have restrictions if the dept approves it. However, most cops don't use full auto weapons. It seems that full auto stuff is usually reserved for SWAT team members, if at all.
It doesn't bother me at all that they have access to select fire weapons. I wish it werent so difficult for people like me to get a hold of them...
It doesn't bother me at all that they have access to select fire weapons. I wish it werent so difficult for people like me to get a hold of them...
Madcap_Magician
Member
Really there's not much need for law enforcement to have full auto weapons. The only thing that full auto does better than semi is sheer volume of fire, usually suppressive in nature, which for obvious reasons is a no-go for a police officer.
Folks, the original question was whether LE had to jump though the same hoops as other folks and the answer is 1) Yes for personally owned weapons 2) No for departmental weapons.
Whether LE departments should or should not have or use FA weapons is a different discussion.
Whether LE departments should or should not have or use FA weapons is a different discussion.
Cop Bob
Member
My neck of the woods it has been for many many years, a few members of the SWAT team only... Individual officers have been banned from carrying even their own personal NFA weapons.. Carbines are welcome, with training and qualification..
Chiefs in our area banned together over 30years ago and agreed to NOT sign letter for even their officers, much less regular citizens to obtain NFA guns for personal use..
Chiefs in our area banned together over 30years ago and agreed to NOT sign letter for even their officers, much less regular citizens to obtain NFA guns for personal use..
armoredman
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I know Maricopa County Sheriffs have an M2HB with tripod, saw it deployed once, publicity stunt. Whether or not it's FUNCTIONAL is a good question.
My Dept has two American 180s somewhere, 22 top feed drum magazine puppies, used for crowd control. Popular legend has it that the one time one was used, the shooter managed to knock out every AC in a unit with it. Never seen since. NOT transferable, so they sit in the darkness forever.
My Dept has two American 180s somewhere, 22 top feed drum magazine puppies, used for crowd control. Popular legend has it that the one time one was used, the shooter managed to knock out every AC in a unit with it. Never seen since. NOT transferable, so they sit in the darkness forever.
HorseSoldier
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Keith Baranski/Magua Industries got in some serious trouble for that dealing with some three-officer small town PD or sheriff's department (the ATF wondering why said department needed to import PK machineguns and some other super fun toys). Guys who are into NFA stuff may know more about his story, I only read up on it a bit after I realized the full auto Polish AKMs my last .mil unit had in our foreign weapons training/familiarization inventory all had US importation markings on them from Magua Industries. Apparently the ATF turned over his confiscated inventory to US military for training use.
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