Do we, as a community, neglect training too much?

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Many of the people I see at the public range don't even have decent muzzle control. Most of them, including people who think they are good shots don't even have a grasp of the fundamentals of shooting a handgun, let alone decent technique.

However, it's a free country and if people want to buy a gun, be it for plinking, competition, or the night stand, it's their business.
 
Mad man, If you take a course from us you can retake the same course again as many times as you like for 50% off.

ShackleMeNot

I just got an e-mail responce from Mr Yeager. about this springs holidaysberg training courses. This is true, but to get 50% off you have to retake the course in Camden, Tennessee.

E-mail from James:

Repeat classes are only half price when you take them at our home range. I'll make sure the Instuctors make that PERFECTLY clear from now on.

Anyway, still the best bargain at $300 for 2 days.
 
I don't really think training is neglected too much. If you notice in most of the newbie threads "new to shooting, what should I get?" sorta stuff, a lot of replies will usually advise that they seek out NRA training courses or something. I do think that anybody getting into guns should get some sort of training course or be taught by another experienced and responsible shooter so they don't hafta learn the hard way.

As far as advanced training goes, I don't think it would make sense to stress on this. If you want advanced training, go for it and if you don't then no biggie. A lot of people who are into guns aren't buying them with the thought that they will use them to fight off armies of mutant ninja polar bears, they just wanna destroy some pop cans or paper.
 
A good training course will give you the fundamentals. After that it is up to you to practice. This is where the downfall is.
 
I think safe gun handling is the part that needs to be reinforced. Spraying a couple of boxes of ammo on a "tactical" range feels good but I don't see it as realistic unless you are a police officer, a soldier, or Wyatt Earp. ;)
 
Victory,

That was a great point, I should have stated that and I'm glad you clarified it here. Classes taught away from our home range have the added expense of travel and lodging for the instructors so it's tough to give discounts.
 
A good training course will give you the fundamentals. After that it is up to you to practice.

I find that to be incorrect. A good training course will give you the fundamentals as far as shooting is concerned, then it will teach you how to practice to master those fundamentals. But that isn't all.

A GOOD training course will teach you tactics and leave you with the proper mindset to survive a violent encounter. That's what seperates good training from "learning to shoot"

That's what you pay the money for.

Victory, That was a great point, I should have stated that and I'm glad you clarified it here. Classes taught away from our home range have the added expense of travel and lodging for the instructors so it's tough to give discounts.

Not all was lost, i was going to take tactical handgun again with my new glock (first glock), but since i'll be paying the same i decided instead to take the initiative and do tactical carbine, then advanced tactical pistol with my new glock, followed by tactical shotgun.

I figure this gives me a good reason to finish my AR-15 and it will keep me a step ahead of my buddy who's doing the 5 days with me (TP, ATP and TS in his case). Then i'll at least be whooping his ass on carbine, if no longer with pistol, while teaching him carbine until he can take the course himself.

It's like having a buddy to lift weights with, you feed of each other in the quest to be better, so when it comes down to it, you can really give the enemy a good flogging.

1)bring a gun
2)bring all your friends with guns
3)bring a rifle
4)bring all your friends with rifles
 
Nope Victory can't agree. All the training in the world won't tell anybody how they will react in a violent situation. Training may help but nobody operates in full automatic mode. The human brain always interferes.
 
Define training.

Training for self defense against the average hood that your likely to run up against in life?

Training for taking on the local swat team?

Training for taking on a national armed force?

Training for taking on aliens and assorted mythical creatures?

You can take it as far and wide as you want.

I mean if you feel you need to be uber tactical with lethal hands and lightning quick draw and point shoot ability to survive then you need to move to a better neighborhood.

The firearms world like any world is a business. Instructors, trainers and the sorts make money trying to make everybody feel they have to be a super cyborg self defense machine.

Police officers are more prone to run up against life threatening situations more than anyone else, yet most officers never pull or even fire their guns.

What does that say for the average citizen?

I keep a fire extinguisher in the kitchen in case of a fire. Prudent defense.
I don't keep a fire department on 24 hour call outside the house to possibly fight a house fire.
 
All the training in the world won't tell anybody how they will react in a violent situation. Training may help but nobody operates in full automatic mode. The human brain always interferes.

You know, Bruce H., that's a very good point. I have now, twice in my life, witnessed highly trained individuals completely lose it when they, for their first time ever, ended up on the wrong side of real -- not simulated -- weapons ...

It's all well and good to get quality training, develop good muscle memory, and master one's weapon(s) of choice ... but ... there are folks who simply can't react when SHTF. As I'm sure has been stated many times before: mindset, mindset, mindset ...
 
I'd have to say that people don't get enough training in general. I think this is partly because buying another gun or dodad is much easier than actually taking a class. Buying a gun just takes getting some cash together, making a decision, and buying it. Taking a class costs money but it also takes time.

In addition, many shooters don't realize the wide array of skills that should be understood and practiced. Until you get some decent training you don't realize that drawing from a holster and getting good hits under time pressure is more difficult than standing at the line on a target range doing one-hole drills.

Recently I've spent much more money (and time) on training than getting new firearms. Each time I realize that there is another layer of skills that I need to develop.
 
Police officers are more prone to run up against life threatening situations more than anyone else, yet most officers never pull or even fire their guns.

If a cop tells you "i've been working for X years and haven't pulled my gun once" he's either full of it or not a very good cop and just plain lucky stuff hasn't gone down while his gun sat in the holster.

I keep a fire extinguisher in the kitchen in case of a fire. Prudent defense. I don't keep a fire department on 24 hour call outside the house to possibly fight a house fire.

Unfortunately, since you weren't trained in firefighting, all you know how to do is sweep at the base of the fire like the instructions say.
 
I've seen lots of people who were ambivalent to training or they lacked the time or money to take training right now but some of these posts strike me as outright anti-training. I just don't understand that attitude.
 
shackle, will you be instructing any of the 4 classes at holidaysburg this april?
 
Unfortunately probably not for those classes. I've got a baby on the way and can't wander too far from home around that time.
 
Victory,
You can't base your opinion on TV or movies. It ain't real.
Here is a report from the DOJ on police use of force. Its one of many on the web. Do some reading.

"Based on data reported for 1996–97, 87
percent of 62,411 use-of-force incidents
involved officers using physical force. Officers
used chemical force in 7 percent of
the incidents, firearms in about 5 percent."

5 percent is pretty low. Lower than chemical spray.

http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/nij/176330-1.pdf

Missed the point about the fire extinguisher.
 
congrats on the kid, shackle

Victory, You can't base your opinion on TV or movies. It ain't real. Here is a report from the DOJ on police use of force. Its one of many on the web. Do some reading.

I suggest you do some reading, buddy. Try starting with your own material. The 5% statistic only comes from when shots are fired. the vast majority of time shots are not fired

Read the text circled in red.

I don't need people who don't know what they're talking about lecturing me.
 
If a cop tells you "i've been working for X years and haven't pulled my gun once" he's either full of it or not a very good cop and just plain lucky stuff hasn't gone down while his gun sat in the holster.

It would also depend a lot on where he practices his trade. I can show you dozens of cops that have never had to pull their weapon.

Cops in Warren MI may pull theirs every night. Cops in Bosque County, TX may not ever.

As far as training...each person must decide how he will train...and for what type of threat he will train for.

Those that have hung around here long enough know I firmly beleive in picking a platform and sticking with it. I don't care if you own 200 Sigs if Sigs are your platform of choice, but I don't think you should switch around between 1911's or other guns for defense.

I think that applies to training to a degree. If you jump around between trainers it can mess you up more than it helps.

I'll give you an example:

School A teaches reloads where you drop your spent/partial mag on the deck and insert a new one. You never retain the mag.

School B teaches you to retain your mags.

So now you have two conflicting methods. If you spent 6 months practicing what you learned at school A, you know have to undo all the work if you adopt B's methods. At the least you have to spend a lot of time evaluating both methods to find which you can adopt to fit your skills.

I went to several different schools (one of which I had never heard of...) and settled on one that offered what I beleive is the better system. And it covers all the different weapon systems; empty hand, impact weapons, edged weapons, hand guns and long guns.

Should the day come that I have learned everything they have to offer (not likely) then I can look to other schools that and try to work what I can into the methods I have adopted.

Pick a platform and stick with it, pick a trainer and stick with him, until you are his better.

Smoke
 
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