Do You Carry a Backup or Just a Primary?

[Mad Magyar]

There is no doubt on why LEO's carry a B.U.G.; in the line of fire & there day to day business: they need it..
Looking at the day-to-day civilian, if he has a primary carry & extra mag giving him extra firepower: why the need for an extra gun? You have more than enough and I assume are smart to the point of seeking cover before the "calvary" arrives..
So, the only explanation for the B.U.G. is IF your primary fails...If you have not thoroughly tested out your piece & have the utmost confidence in it: you selected & have the WRONG weapon....
Most PD schools that deal with non-law enforcement students do not deal with this issue at any length...Even tactical re-load practice is a has-been....
As my mentor, B.Steiner, once suggested: acquire some martial-arts training instead of the extra piece....

 

[PX15]

JMOFO:

I've sorta come to the conclusion that when I'm unable to cc my Walther P99c/AS I might just start carrying my wifes LWS32 along with mine.. I can do that with no problem as the little Seecamps are just so concealable..

Then I'd have 14rds of Gold Dots, and no mag change required...

Just another option.

JP

 

[spwenger]

It's Your Gunfight

As my mentor, B.Steiner, once suggested: acquire some martial-arts training instead of the extra piece....

On the wall, to my left as I type this, along with three instructor certificates from the Law Enforcement Activities Division of the NRA and one from the National Law Enforcement Training Center (for weapon retention and disarming), is an instructor certifcate, dated June 20, 1999, in the Cantonese martial art of wing chun kuen. It is precisely wing chun's emphasis on ambidexterity that leads me to list access with either hand as the primary reason that I choose to carry a revolver behind each hip.

As to an earlier remark about comfort, I find that this symmetrical carry system avoids some of the back strain others have suffered and also present a more balanced image, where any possible bulges don't draw as mch attention because they appear symmetrical.

As I have said before, it's your gunfight. It makes me no never mind if you choose not to carry, to carry only one gun or to carry more guns than I do. However, when you choose to disparage what I consider sound tactics, in a forum where you may influence others, I will continue to present an opposing viewpoint.

 

[ATW525]

So, the only explanation for the B.U.G. is IF your primary fails

Or easily access to weapon in a wider variety of circumstances.

Or the ability to arm another person who isn't able to carry themselves.

Or the fact that drawing a second gun is often the quickest and most foolproof way to reload a revolver under stress.

Did you actually read the thread at all?

If you have not thoroughly tested out your piece & have the utmost confidence in it: you selected & have the WRONG weapon....

I have as much confidence in my weapons as I can in any mechanical device. If you don't believe that any firearm can fail, then I don't know what to tell you. I would consider your viewpoint that it can't happen if you've thoroughly tested your firearm to be unrealistically naive.

 

[fivepaknh]

I have as much confidence in my weapons as I can in any mechanical device. If you don't believe that any firearm can fail, then I don't know what to tell you. I would consider your viewpoint that it can't happen if you've thoroughly tested your firearm to be unrealistically naive.

So let's say you have a quality firearm that's well maintained. Now in order to need a b.u.g you have to

1. find yourself in a situation where you even need a gun
2. be in a situation where the mere sight of your gun doesn't end the threat
3. this high quality well maintained firearm decides at that very moment to fail rather than the dozens of times you've fired it at the range

There's one group that wants to remove our right to self defense, and there's the other end that goes to ridiculous lengths to defend themselves. I believe there is a reasonable middle ground.

Of all the people that carry all the extra firepower, wonder how many smoke, don't wear their seatbelt, eat like crap, never exercise, or do any number of things that could cause an early death. My guess is that many are guilty of at least one of these things. Though when carrying they supply themselves with a ridiculous amount of hardware for the most extreme and unlikely situations. This is what leads the more reasonable people to label them mall ninjas or wannabe cops.

Carry what you want. It doesn't affect me, but I do find it very amusing. I'm not trying to tell you what you can or cannot carry. I'm just giving you my opinion on what's reasonable.

 

[ATW525]

So let's say you have a quality firearm that's well maintained. Now in order to need a b.u.g you have to

1. find yourself in a situation where you even need a gun
2. be in a situation where the mere sight of your gun doesn't end the threat
3. this high quality well maintained firearm decides at that very moment to fail rather than the dozens of times you've fired it at the range

Or need it for any of the other reasons people carry BUGs, or did you miss the rest of my post (and quite a few other posts in this thread)?

 

[fivepaknh]

I read them and they're still VERY unlikely for a non-LEO.

 

[mavracer]

Carry what you want. It doesn't affect me, but I do find it very amusing. I'm not trying to tell you what you can or cannot carry. I'm just giving you my opinion on what's reasonable.

you know I think I will the nice thing about this disagreement from my perspective is if I'm wrong oh well I carried extra weight today.If your wrong you die.

 

[fivepaknh]

We could all die anyday. The point is how far should we go to prevent it. Should wear suits of armor? Should I walk around in a bubble to prevent catching an infectious disease? I look at statistics and adjust accordingly.

 

[mavracer]

Should I walk around in a bubble to prevent catching an infectious disease?

actually I try to lick a doorknob at least once a week to keep my tolerance to disease down.

 

[ATW525]

I read them and they're still VERY unlikely for a non-LEO.

Considering I'm not an LEO and I've personally been grateful that I've had second gun for two out of the three other reasons I mentioned, I will have to disagree with your assessment of what is unlikely.

 

[fivepaknh]

Considering I'm not an LEO and I've personally been grateful that I've had second gun for two out of the three other reasons I mentioned, I will have to disagree with your assessment of what is unlikely.

You've needed a backup gun twice and you're not a LEO? I'd stay in during lightning storms. You seem to have extraordinarily bad luck. Though, I'd love to hear the details. I have a difficult time believing it. As a matter of fact, I love for someone to post a story or two from some media source where a civilian has needed a bug. I know the media isn't exactly gun friendly, but we've all seen self defense stories in the news.

Having two guns available and having two guns on your person are two very different things. The reason I say that is I have a S&W model 60 in my truck 24/7. It's there because while belted in I can't access my carry gun that sits at 7:00. Also, there are times I go out of the house quickly and forget my carry gun. In those cases I can just strap on the .38.

 

[GEM]

Most civilian gun uses have NO shots fired - so most of us could carry an empty gun.

The issue is whether you carry for the modal gun use or worry about the tail of the distribution and the cut point in the tail.

For example, the gentleman who lost the Tyler, TX courthouse gun fight was undergunned. He was killed by a guy with a vest. Thus, should we always carry our AR's around?

You might come under attack as in the TX tower incident?

Or, you most like never fire a shot - so carry unloaded? That seems unreasonable.

Carrying a bug or extra mag is for the chance that you get into a more extreme incident that the standard one mugger yells at you incident that can be handled by a unloaded J frame that scares such a dude away.

It is perfectly reasonable to plan for the tail, as if you are hit in your dominant arm or the gun goes belly up.

So - my Glock 19 once broke a spring - oops! A G-27 had a mag go bad. I was a Beretta 92 shoot parts out of it. Oops. The American Rifleman has a view of the new Kel-tec that went belly up during a test.

Since the vast majority of gun fights by civilians have no shots fired - we don't see a high bug usage but that is not to say it's stupid or nuts to carry one.

 

[ATW525]

You've needed a backup gun twice and you're not a LEO?

I've needed to arm a companion once, and I've needed to access my BUG once when my primary was not accessable. Neither incident ended in shots fired (well, technically the second incident did have shots fired, but I was able to avoid getting involved), and neither incident required even presenting a firearm, but both times I was extremely grateful that I had the second gun.

 

[spwenger]

You Must Have An Interesting Political Philosophy

There's one group that wants to remove our right to self defense, and there's the other end that goes to ridiculous lengths to defend themselves. I believe there is a reasonable middle ground.

That's an interesting dichotomy: no RKBA vs. carrying more than one firearm. If you don't currently live in New Mexico, you might want to consider moving there. By administrative fiat of the New Mexico DPS, Concealed Handgun Licensees may only carry one concealed handgun in that state - sounds like the perfect compromise for you.

Would it also be ridiculous for a homeowner who reloads to have a dry-powder fire extinguisher in the kitchen and a water-dispensing fire extinguisher near the reloading bench (and perhaps even a gas-type fire extinguisher near the computer)?

 

[george29]

So tonight I actually am happy that I carry a BUG. I left my Primary in the car because I was working in the yard all day, toward early afternoon boss says to take a trailer and drop off at the other yard, take a different trailer and drop it the other side of town. Well, rush hour and dumb NM drivers and I find that at 6pm I am 2 miles from home and boss says to park the truck at home and bring it back in the a.m, or I can drive another hour back to the yard, drop the truck, get in my car and drive an hour home. I chose to save the $5 in gas and 2 hours driving leaving the primary locked in the car in the locked yard (hope it's there tomorrow). But I still have ny BUG, a teeny, tiny, insignificant NAA - no harm, no foul.
One good reason to have a BUG as a non-LEO.

 

[hand_loader]

Do you carry more than one backup?

No

If your primary is an auto, do you carry a wheel gun for backup?

Yes

If you carry a backup what is it?

A 32 wheel with gold dot hollow points in an ankle holster.

If, God forbid, you should ever have to use your backup do you fear the courts making you out to be a gun toting zealot? But then again, if have to use your backup I assume that you might not otherwise be around for the courts to judge anyway.

Yes I have the fear that they will try to make things look worse than they are.


I also carry a P99 in 40cal. as prime and a maglight (2 AA) and a folding knife plus 2 spare mags for the p99 in a belt web band.

 

[fivepaknh]

That's an interesting dichotomy: no RKBA vs. carrying more than one firearm. If you don't currently live in New Mexico, you might want to consider moving there. By administrative fiat of the New Mexico DPS, Concealed Handgun Licensees may only carry one concealed handgun in that state - sounds like the perfect compromise for you.

You really haven’t read my posts or maybe I haven’t made myself clear. I believe there should be NO gun laws on the books. I’m libertarian on many issues. When I talk about both sides of an issue I mean that some people believe it’s not necessary for anyone to own, let alone carry a firearm. Then there’s the other extreme where those people find it necessary to carry multiple firearms. I would never want restrict your rights. Just because I disagree it doesn’t mean I want to legislate it.

 

[Mad Magyar]

By administrative fiat of the New Mexico DPS, Concealed Handgun Licensees may only carry one concealed handgun in that state

Damn, are we progressive or what?

Everyone has stated an opinion, including myself, but let's look at the FACTS!
Altercations: Gunshots Fired: Includes LEO's, everyone for the past 35 years...
Range:2-3 yds, 95% of those within 3-5 feet.
# of Shots: 2
Time Duration: 2-3 seconds.
Source: F.B.I. Uniform National Crime Data

Just to be clear, all my training is based on PD, a.k.a. CQC...No bullseye at longer distances, just self-defense drills: all with one-weapon, multiple target scenarios....
It doesn't bother me if you carry whatever, just a rationale on not carrying a B.U.G. while out & about....
Appreciate all the constructive criticism....

 

[bigmike45]

Do you carry a spare tire in your car???

I have carried a backup since I started carrying....better safe than sorry!!!

bigmike

 

[Rexster]

The problem with statistics regarding the number of shots fired per incident, is that many encounters involve only ONE shot, yet is average is a bit more than one-point-something.

 

[GEM]

People who spout the average don't know anything about statistics. :banghead: As pointed out, depending on distribution shape, half the incidents could be above the average.

Also, in statistics you usually take into account the confidence interval. Meaning do you plan for the extremes. There may be 5% that have to fire more than 2 or 3 shots (just an example), so do you want to be the expected 5 out of hundred guys who can't meet that challenge.

Like I said, the average is no shots fired by civilians - so you don't need ammo.

 

[AStone]

As pointed out, depending on distribution shape,
half the incidents could be above the average.

For example, the Beta distribution.

As long as Beta is 1 or less.

Normal?
Gaussian?
Bell-shaped?

Why be normal?

 

[Mad Magyar]

I believe some of you missed the point about using actual firing data and how this applies to having a B.U.G. or not?
Instead of sharp-shooting statistics in a way that everyone knows can be distorted, ask how much fire-power does JQ Citizen need out there?
If everyone agrees that their primary carry is reliable or it wouldn't be in their holster, why in the world do you need two? Especially when so many carry a spare mag. It appears to me that some have an over-compensation factor or lack of confidence in their primary weapon with all the "what-ifs" scenarios...
To put it succinctly; the best B.U.G. is between "your ears".....

 

[GEM]

I think the distribution is probably positively skewed but that doesn't mean that one still shouldn't consider where in the tail, you make the cut.

Mad M. - reliable primaries belly up. Reliability isn't absolute. Magazines belly up. If you shoot a lot, you will see it.

When you start talking about over-compensation, then your argument loses credibility. It's clear you don't understand the statistical part of the discussion when you talk about the data but ignore the distributional part of the discussion.