Do You Carry a Backup or Just a Primary?
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fivepaknh
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Statistically I’ll likely never use my primary gun in defense of my life. So in the unlikely event that I do have to use my weapon statistics show that one is, in the vast majority of cases, enough. If the situation comes that I need my gun and I either can’t access it in its holster or the gun fails to function, then I guess God’s telling me it’s my time.
For you guys that carry a bug, why not add to the scenario and wear some light body armor under your street clothes? How about a helmet for the very unlikely event a meteor comes down and strikes you? If you want to go armed to the teeth then knock your self out. It’s your right and I never want that right taken from you, but it’s also my right to chuckle at you guys for carry all that unnecessary stuff.
For you guys that carry a bug, why not add to the scenario and wear some light body armor under your street clothes? How about a helmet for the very unlikely event a meteor comes down and strikes you? If you want to go armed to the teeth then knock your self out. It’s your right and I never want that right taken from you, but it’s also my right to chuckle at you guys for carry all that unnecessary stuff.
Jkwas
Member
My backup is my primary: Keltec P3AT. Being in a warm climate, my clothing usually won't allow for more.
spwenger
Member
Sounds like a standard pacifist argument for not carrying in the first place.
Having worn soft body armor, I can tell you that it is much easier to conceal a second handgun than it is to conceal the body armor, particularly in hot weather. Spend some time around uniformed cops and you will invariably notice the back panels printing through their uniform shirts. That doesn't even start dealing with the issue of comfort in hot weather.
Sounds as though you're more interested in generating chuckles than in defending rights but I'll continue to defend your right to respomd that way to folks who elect to take more precautions in life than you choose to.
fivepaknh
Member
Like I said, I defend your right to carry 5 guns, a 1000 rounds, 3 knives, a flare gun, and a samurai sword. I'm just being practical. I look at the statistics and I listen to those that live in truly dangerous places, like the member here from South Africa. I also listen to cops that while on the job intentionally put themselves in dangerous situations. I can understand if these people felt the need for more than one gun.
We all have ideas on what's reasonable. I'm not forcing what I find reasonable on you. I'd never want to see a law passed that limits how many weapons a person can carry.
I see it this way too. If you ever have to defend yourself you're likely to only need the one gun. When the police arrive, as a matter of procedure you're likely to be searched and cuffed. When they find the other gun and possible spare mags, that will be brought up in front of a jury that's probably as gun friendly as we are. Now you can say you'll ditch the other gun before the cops arrive, but you may not get that opportunity. Especially is there are witnesses around.
For the record, I'm against ALL gun laws. I believe laws should only come into play if the tool (gun) is misused.
ATW525
Member
I suppose it could be a problem for the people that are armed like Travis Bickle. However, if it even got to a jury, I would be more worried about the proscuter showing up with a printout of of a page showing your sig line, then I would be about having two guns.
spwenger
Member
Being Practical?
As to your "statistical" argument, please consider the John Farnam routine:
Q. How often does someone actually get murdered someplace like (insert name of your home town)?
A. Just like anywhere else - only once.
I'm not trying to convince you to carry a second gun if you don't choose to do so. As my former teaching partner used to say to the occasional student who repeatedly questioned the tactics we sought to teach, "It's your gunfight." It's just that I think I can do better without your "defense" of my right to do so.
Hey, I don't really know how much of the thread your read before you decided to post your initial "defense" of my right to carry 5 guns. However, if you did start at the beginning of the thread, you either failed to notice or chose to ignore part of my posting (#6):
It's fine to mock the overuse of the term "tactical" but those of us who use it correctly consider it virtually synonymous with "practical," from the standpoint of what is realistic in a fight, as opposed to putting holes into carboard targets, which don't punch, slash, stab or shoot at you.
As to your "statistical" argument, please consider the John Farnam routine:
Q. How often does someone actually get murdered someplace like (insert name of your home town)?
A. Just like anywhere else - only once.
I'm not trying to convince you to carry a second gun if you don't choose to do so. As my former teaching partner used to say to the occasional student who repeatedly questioned the tactics we sought to teach, "It's your gunfight." It's just that I think I can do better without your "defense" of my right to do so.
fivepaknh
Member
Meant to say "When they find the other gun and possible spare mags, that will be brought up in front of a jury that's probably NOT as gun friendly as we are.
fivepaknh
Member
You're probably right.
I saw the line on "Happy Gilmore. Happy's old boss(Rickard Keel) had it on his t-shirt.Choclabman
Member
I carry a G32 with a spare magazine. I have at times, carried a G33 at the same time in a pocket holster. Oh, the horror.
A lot of times in the winter, I carry a 4" 686(modified to accept full moons) with two spare moonclips.
A lot of times in the winter, I carry a 4" 686(modified to accept full moons) with two spare moonclips.
george29
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I once wore a green khaki uniform and carried an evil black rifle. I also wore a blue uniform and my personal carry was a MKIII although the G-17 & G-19 were also approved carry (any nine with a double stack was usually approved). BUG's were unknown and unapproved although certain undercover types were given special clearance. In the trunk of the car was always a long gun. Most cars had two officers or one officer and one volunteer deputy, there was always hand held radios to back up the one in the car. On the belt, most officers carried spare mags, flashlights, cuffs, mace, a folding knife and the hand portable.
As a regular joe, I don't have a portable hand-held radio that puts me in immediate communication with brothers who will at the drop of a dime race to my rescue, I no longer wear my vest, I don't have a partner that walks where I walk, when I walk there, nobody had my back when I stumbled upon a few gangsters that were trying to bust into the community mailbox at a very dark 8pm and all I had on me was my p-32 wishing it was my SBH in the safe. Yes, I know that usually one gun is more than enough, but what happens when it's not? Wouldn't you rather have a tiny BUG like a p-32 or a NAA just in case your wondergun has a Murphy on you? Springs break, feedlips get bent, magazines sometimes slack-off and those wonderful internal locks could just get turned enough from an unintentioned whack just enough to lock it out of battery if only for that crucial first second that you need it. Nobody is forcing anyone to carry a gun here, primary or BUG, but I have seen enough of what happens to those "happy-go-lucky", "it won't happen to me", "what are the chances of", that I prefer to wear my safety belt, keep a spare tire and two cans of tire inflator, and to hold onto the grab rail as I climb up and down my cab, and yes, to have that tiny BUG hoping that I never need it. I can't remember how many times I have watched the meat-wagon take some poor guy or his child on their next to last ride because of something that should never have happened.
As a regular joe, I don't have a portable hand-held radio that puts me in immediate communication with brothers who will at the drop of a dime race to my rescue, I no longer wear my vest, I don't have a partner that walks where I walk, when I walk there, nobody had my back when I stumbled upon a few gangsters that were trying to bust into the community mailbox at a very dark 8pm and all I had on me was my p-32 wishing it was my SBH in the safe. Yes, I know that usually one gun is more than enough, but what happens when it's not? Wouldn't you rather have a tiny BUG like a p-32 or a NAA just in case your wondergun has a Murphy on you? Springs break, feedlips get bent, magazines sometimes slack-off and those wonderful internal locks could just get turned enough from an unintentioned whack just enough to lock it out of battery if only for that crucial first second that you need it. Nobody is forcing anyone to carry a gun here, primary or BUG, but I have seen enough of what happens to those "happy-go-lucky", "it won't happen to me", "what are the chances of", that I prefer to wear my safety belt, keep a spare tire and two cans of tire inflator, and to hold onto the grab rail as I climb up and down my cab, and yes, to have that tiny BUG hoping that I never need it. I can't remember how many times I have watched the meat-wagon take some poor guy or his child on their next to last ride because of something that should never have happened.
annielulu
Member
Khar PM9 with 124g Gold Dot +p as primary and Bond Arms "Texas Defender" derringer loaded with 200g Corbon+P .45 long Colt as BUG in pocket.
Autolycus
Member
I realize I need a j-frame.
Mad Magyar
Member
The "what IF" is alive & well.....Please, we are not talking about LEO's and their circumstances....For civilians, most B.U.G.s are not that accessible in a CQC situation. How about another what if: you get overpowered, the perp now has 2 or more of your weapons....
No one should a carry that "special gun" unless they are completely confident in it's reliability and it's capability.....
jahwarrior
Member
i think carrying a BUG is dependent on your situation, just as carrying a single gun would be. most of the LEOs i speak with carry a backup, usually one that matches their primary, ie a glock 26 for their glock 17, etc. a lot of convenient store workers/owners also practice the BUG method, with a shotgun or large bore handgun being the primary, and smaller, concealed weapon being the back up.
normally, i only carry one gun. that is to say, i always carry a gun; at home, at work, out shopping, in a nightclub, always. i also carry a knife, but that's more out of lifelong habit, and for utility, than for SD. lately, though, i have been pocket carrying a BUG, a small .380, not because i feel i need to, but because i'm just trying to get used to pocket carry. still, a BUG is nice to have, just in case.
normally, i only carry one gun. that is to say, i always carry a gun; at home, at work, out shopping, in a nightclub, always. i also carry a knife, but that's more out of lifelong habit, and for utility, than for SD. lately, though, i have been pocket carrying a BUG, a small .380, not because i feel i need to, but because i'm just trying to get used to pocket carry. still, a BUG is nice to have, just in case.
george29
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I know, I feel that LEO's have less of a need having been one, that is NOT to say that LEO's don't need one, but rather that non-LEO's, when they need a BUG, they need it as much as, or more than a LEO because of all the other factors that a LEO has going for him, all those things that a non-LEO does not, making the BUG all the more important.
Why? Most LEO BUGs are pocket carry and usually of a major caliber (.38, .380, 9mm, .357, .40) or as previously mentioned, of the same caliber as the primary. A non-LEOs BUG can be as simple as a P-32 or NAA .22 which fits very readily in even a toddlers pocket. So many people carry two knives, if carrying the NAA is that uncomfortable, then I have no solutions for that person. One of my BUGs as a LEO was a S&W M-60 that I kept in my shirt pocket, I have a really big chest, it wasn't fashionable or comfortable, but I got used to it.
So what's the diff if you have one or two? Either they take both or they take one and don't find or expect the second, except for financial loss, I don't see the problem.
spwenger
Member
Excuse Me...
While I know people whose primary gun is not particularly accessible, I would assume that someone astute enough to carry a backup would do so in a location that was reasonably accessible. If it's not readily accessible to its owner, how would the assailant know it was there to take and how would the assailant access it?
Further, in law enforcement, one of the main arguments for backup guns is precisely if an assailant has either gotten hold of the officer's primary handgun or prevented him from drawing it. I recall an incident on the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department in which a trainee and his field-training officer were attacked by a group of Nation of Islam members. When the trainee went to the aid of his FTO, his Beretta was pinned in the holster by one of the assailants, whereupon he drew his J-frame revolver from his back pocket and shot the guy in the head. At that point, the rest of the group suddenly remembered urgent appointments elsewhere.
In an earlier comment about tactics and practicality, I referred to what is practical in a fight. The "what if" game is useful to prepare for realistic scenarios that may confront you. I will bite my proverbial tongue about its use to disparage sound tactics chosen by others.
While I make no claim to have conducted a scientific survey, I have been using the internet to track (and share) firearm-related news for nearly 11 years. During that time I have only come across three incidents in which private citizens were either disarmed by assailants or killed in the process of an attempted disarm. (In one incident in south Phoenix, a man who was carrying openly was attacked by a pair of robbers who wanted his gun; he died in the attack but it was unclear from the news report if the robbers actually got the gun.)
While I know people whose primary gun is not particularly accessible, I would assume that someone astute enough to carry a backup would do so in a location that was reasonably accessible. If it's not readily accessible to its owner, how would the assailant know it was there to take and how would the assailant access it?
Further, in law enforcement, one of the main arguments for backup guns is precisely if an assailant has either gotten hold of the officer's primary handgun or prevented him from drawing it. I recall an incident on the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department in which a trainee and his field-training officer were attacked by a group of Nation of Islam members. When the trainee went to the aid of his FTO, his Beretta was pinned in the holster by one of the assailants, whereupon he drew his J-frame revolver from his back pocket and shot the guy in the head. At that point, the rest of the group suddenly remembered urgent appointments elsewhere.
In an earlier comment about tactics and practicality, I referred to what is practical in a fight. The "what if" game is useful to prepare for realistic scenarios that may confront you. I will bite my proverbial tongue about its use to disparage sound tactics chosen by others.
Mad Magyar
Member
The distinction between what LEO's carry & the average CCW holder is quite pronounced....LEO's expose their primary weapon and any perp worth it's salt knows there is B.U.G. somewhere for obvious reasons...
The average civilian is carrying the largest caliber he can manage with what I call the 3 C's: Concealibility, Capability, & Comfort...Yes, comfort, I don't care what C. Smith says about a weapon "is comforting & not necessarily comfortable"...
Trying to manage two or more handguns in the above context is approaching zealous proportions in which the average pistolero need not participate...
Like it's been said on this thread, do as you please but there reaches a point where practicality is bordering on the extreme...
The average civilian is carrying the largest caliber he can manage with what I call the 3 C's: Concealibility, Capability, & Comfort...Yes, comfort, I don't care what C. Smith says about a weapon "is comforting & not necessarily comfortable"...
Trying to manage two or more handguns in the above context is approaching zealous proportions in which the average pistolero need not participate...
Like it's been said on this thread, do as you please but there reaches a point where practicality is bordering on the extreme...
TimM
Member
There is also a point where naivety borders dangerousness.
Choclabman
Member
Why are people so insecure about themselves, that they try and push their viewpoints on other's.
If carrying one weapon makes you happy, go for it. I carrying five makes you all gitty inside, then go for it.
Telling another person they are wrong, because they do no share you views is pure BS.
I only have the G32 on at this time. But tomorrow, is a brand new day.
Tommorrow I will carry the G32 in a VM2 , and maybe the G33 in a pocket holster. Or maybe the Model 40 in pocket holster.
If carrying one weapon makes you happy, go for it. I carrying five makes you all gitty inside, then go for it.
Telling another person they are wrong, because they do no share you views is pure BS.
I only have the G32 on at this time. But tomorrow, is a brand new day.
Tommorrow I will carry the G32 in a VM2 , and maybe the G33 in a pocket holster. Or maybe the Model 40 in pocket holster.
AStone
Member
During the last week or two, I was swallowed and partially chewed by an aggressive monster called "work". Just last night (by choice), I was spit out, took the night off (well after 10 pm), and slept long (I'm talking almost 12) and sound for the first time in ... oh, never mind.
The point is, I'm behind on my homework. I've only read a few posts on this page, haven't touched the two pages before that. So, if there was a pop quiz given in this thread right now about the poll numbers on this issue, I'd fail. (Well, unless the old "strike fingers on desk, choose answer corresponding to which one stings most" technique works, but it was never very good in the past.)
But what brought me to post was seeing a bit of smoke rising from the thread, and thinking it's too valuable a discussion to get a lock slammed on it, so I thought I'd just post a thought or two.
<ahem>
1) IMO, if people want to carry 0 guns or 20 guns all at one time, it's fine with me as long as they observe the four rules of gun safety with all of them, and don't point them in my direction.
2) Even though in some earlier post in this thread, I stated unequivocally that I only carry a primary with no bug, and that I didn't even carry a reload, I realized later that oversimplified things.
Speaking ONLY for myself, the correct answer is, it depends.
(I guess that would be "all of the above" on a multiple guess quiz.)
In my world, a day is not necessarily a day. All are different.
For example, here are four conditions that would motivate different carry strategies for me.
A: In my studio (which is where I am, oh, say 336 out of 365 days a year), I am wearing only my SW X42,
but no speed strip because my back up (carbine) is a less-than-7-sec protected sprint from anywhere here.
B: In a favorite camp in the Ponderosa woodlands (which is where I'd rather be 336 out of 365 days a year), my primary would be a 65. (Oh, no, wait - if I'm on a walk, the "primary" would be the 1894C with 65 bug as 65. The X42 would also be in the pack. Reloads? Of course. Several. What are packs for besides food, water, layers and rain gear? Oh, and I haven't even mentioned the edge tools.)
C: In town in public, for now, alas, no gun. I've completed training, but haven't yet gotten the CCW permit yet. (See above reference to aggressive monster.) When I get that permit in the near future, I'll carry an X42 during normal, stable (*) conditions, but will adjust the strategy as necessary. (* See entry D.)
D: During unstable conditions, perhaps during a civil disturbance caused by, say, tense social situations (riots, etc) or some extreme weather event, I'd conceivably be wearing a primary + bug, with the carbine near by when at work, home or base camp.
There are numerous other scenarios,
but I hope those illustrate my point:
it depends.
Nem
The point is, I'm behind on my homework. I've only read a few posts on this page, haven't touched the two pages before that. So, if there was a pop quiz given in this thread right now about the poll numbers on this issue, I'd fail. (Well, unless the old "strike fingers on desk, choose answer corresponding to which one stings most" technique works, but it was never very good in the past.)
But what brought me to post was seeing a bit of smoke rising from the thread, and thinking it's too valuable a discussion to get a lock slammed on it, so I thought I'd just post a thought or two.
<ahem>
1) IMO, if people want to carry 0 guns or 20 guns all at one time, it's fine with me as long as they observe the four rules of gun safety with all of them, and don't point them in my direction.
2) Even though in some earlier post in this thread, I stated unequivocally that I only carry a primary with no bug, and that I didn't even carry a reload, I realized later that oversimplified things.
Speaking ONLY for myself, the correct answer is, it depends.
(I guess that would be "all of the above" on a multiple guess quiz.)
In my world, a day is not necessarily a day. All are different.
For example, here are four conditions that would motivate different carry strategies for me.
A: In my studio (which is where I am, oh, say 336 out of 365 days a year), I am wearing only my SW X42,
but no speed strip because my back up (carbine) is a less-than-7-sec protected sprint from anywhere here.
B: In a favorite camp in the Ponderosa woodlands (which is where I'd rather be 336 out of 365 days a year), my primary would be a 65. (Oh, no, wait - if I'm on a walk, the "primary" would be the 1894C with 65 bug as 65. The X42 would also be in the pack. Reloads? Of course. Several. What are packs for besides food, water, layers and rain gear? Oh, and I haven't even mentioned the edge tools.)
C: In town in public, for now, alas, no gun. I've completed training, but haven't yet gotten the CCW permit yet. (See above reference to aggressive monster.) When I get that permit in the near future, I'll carry an X42 during normal, stable (*) conditions, but will adjust the strategy as necessary. (* See entry D.)
D: During unstable conditions, perhaps during a civil disturbance caused by, say, tense social situations (riots, etc) or some extreme weather event, I'd conceivably be wearing a primary + bug, with the carbine near by when at work, home or base camp.
There are numerous other scenarios,
but I hope those illustrate my point:
it depends.
Nem
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Crow1108
Member
I just carry a primary, 2 magazines, and a knife. That's about all I really need. Thinking about adding a can of OC to it though.
I don't have a back up gun ON ME in addition to my primary.
For my life style that's WAY too much stuff to carry every day of my life as I'm much more likely to get bit by a stray rabid dog in my neighborhood than be attacked by a squad of terrorists with AKM's wanting to kidnap me for state secrets. I do have an old 12 gauge pump shotgun in my car that you might consider a back up (depending if I'm close enough to get to it if things turned bad AND I need a 2nd gun).
I do have some pepper spray, a spare mag and a folding knife that I carry, but for me carrying around one gun is enough. If I was a cop or if I lived in a bad urban neighborhood where something bad was likely to happen I might change my tune, but for around here I'm overarmed just carrying what I have.
For my life style that's WAY too much stuff to carry every day of my life as I'm much more likely to get bit by a stray rabid dog in my neighborhood than be attacked by a squad of terrorists with AKM's wanting to kidnap me for state secrets. I do have an old 12 gauge pump shotgun in my car that you might consider a back up (depending if I'm close enough to get to it if things turned bad AND I need a 2nd gun).
I do have some pepper spray, a spare mag and a folding knife that I carry, but for me carrying around one gun is enough. If I was a cop or if I lived in a bad urban neighborhood where something bad was likely to happen I might change my tune, but for around here I'm overarmed just carrying what I have.
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