Do you CCW with a round chambered?

[rich52us]

Let's break it down.

1. I think that keeping my gun holstered is a good, rather than "evil" thing to do in normal sane society.

2. By your own words, you think the necessity of keeping your gun holstered is an "evil."

3. Of course you disagree with carrying unchambered, because you don't even agree with keeping it holstered.

4. Therefore, you and I disagree

This is a misinterpretation of what Steve said. He said he has to carry in a "security holster". The additional time it takes him to draw his weapon due to the security nature of his holster is the "evil". Not keeping his gun holstered. Please re-read it.

What he said about training and performance under stress is right on. I know this from experience.

I'm going to make a broad generalization, but I bet I'm right. Those who choose to carry with an empty chamber, have not been in a real life and death confrontation.

Flopsy, like I said previously, you're right about #4 on your list. We've hashed this over on this thread and others in the past. So we'll have to agree to disagree. No point in further discussion in my opinion so I'm bowing out of the thread. Good luck to all with their choices in life.

 

[Bish]

If you have enough time to chamber a round in an emergency, then it probably isn't as big an emergency as you thought. If you don't, and it isn't already there, you're dead. Hell yes I carry chambered.
-Bish

 

[Flopsy]

You're right, I've never been in a life or death gun draw.

What he said about training and performance under stress is right on. I know this from experience.

Right, once again you and I agree. Skills and training can fail under stress. So please see my last post: why are the training and skills to prevent a ND completely immune from stress, but the ability to rack a slide and switch off a safety DO break down?

 

[KC&97TA]

not only is there a round chambered theres a 230gr Corbon JHP backed up by 8 rounds of 230gr Federal, that first one gives a little bit of kick to it, but will be able to stop just about anyone when placed COM

Love my little Springfield Champion Mil-Spec .45acp but to pull the slide to the rear, on a 4" 1911 with a 24lb Recoil Spring and a 23lb Main Spring, isn't something I want to do in a high stress situation, this way I know that when I pull that gun from IWB, to a combat ready stance, all that stands between that "threat & death" is the; engaged grip safety, thumb safety and the short trigger pull of a 1911... all the "threat" sees is a barrel pointing at him that's almost a HALF INCH in diameter.

When I carry my Beretta 92FS or M9, loaded, I carry it with the safety/decocker off; just draw and pull that DA trigger.

I've been in about as High Stress of a situation as it gets many times, killing is different over 'there', it's become more political, but nobody here would want to go to Iraq with out a round in the Chamber, so why carry in the states in Condition 3?

EDIT to add this: "when the SHTF, the spinkter muscle slamms shut, the IQ goes to Cave Man and the trigger finger starts a rappid session of pulling till the bolt locks back" (not my quote) after reading this quote and after I've heard it several times from a former SOTG instructor, it just justifies condition one carry all that much more to myself and others.

 

[Crawlin]

Flopsy said:
BUT, everyone in the pro-chambered camp is still 100% confident that they can keep their training intact to keep clear of the trigger and prevent a ND, even though they fully acknowledge that skills and training break down under stress. In fact, that's the argument I hear most why people SHOULD carry chambered.

Tell me, why if you acknowledge that skills and training break down under stress, are you insistent that this part of the skills are immune from stress and won't break down, but the ability to rack a slide or switch off a safety are subject to break down under stress?

Flopsy, I agree that ALL skills break down under stress, including trigger control, and so on. However, if my gun comes out of the holster, it is because it needs to fire right then. If I don't need to fire my gun, it will never be seen by the BG.

Also, mussel memory takes over at some point as well. True, you mussels are trained to rack a slide when the gun is pulled, but what happens if the other hand is disabled for some reason.

For me, I know exactly how my trigger finger will react when I come off the target because I've been in a situation where I had to do something about the issue right then and there. I was at the range shooting and a piece of brass bouced just right and got lodged in my shooting glasses, burned the under side of my eye. It was a pain that I wanted to make stop right then, I bent over and flung my glasses off. After all was said and done, I look down at my pistol (which was no pointed at the ground) and my finger was off the trigger. True this was not life and death, but there was "something" that I had to stop "right then" and I know how my mussles will react under stress.

 

[AaronE]

and just what use is it to NOT?

That would be a YES.

Aaron

 

[kengrubb]

everyone in the pro-chambered camp is still 100% confident that they can keep their training intact to keep clear of the trigger and prevent a ND, even though they fully acknowledge that skills and training break down under stress.

I don't believe I'm alone in the camp who says yes carry with a round in the chamber, do train as you will fight, and that your training generally will NOT break down under stress. In fact, I think your training is the ONLY constant you can count on when TSHF. In the past, we've seen cops and others get killed because they adhered to their training, but something was inherently wrong in the training.

Your skills will likely break down some. If you normally, under simulated stress, can put a tight group in the A-Zone, then under real stress the pattern will open up a bit and perhaps fill up the A-Zone. If you normally are filling the A-Zone, then under real stress you might start missing some.

Fine motor skills break down to the extent that you can no longer regulate the amount of pressure you exert doing something. For that reason, I disagree with the really old school idea of finger on the trigger is OK even up to pointing a gun at someone just so long as the gun has a "heavy" trigger pull. I say bullsh*t. Whether the trigger breaks at 2 pounds or 22 pounds, I don't believe you'll know the difference and I don't believe it's going to affect your shooting much if at all. With the adrenalin of reality, your trigger finger won't know the difference. Same goes for flashlights. Maglites allow you to apply "gentle pressure" to activate the instant on/off switch, but exert "too much" pressure, and the flashlight stays on. SureFire figured this out and that's why they came out with the instant on/off ONLY switch. Whether you press with 2 ounces or 22 pounds, light goes on and off instantly. One guy in one of my FAS classes had a Maglite. Marty Hayes had him double click and hold the flashlight on, and release to switch it off, for the darkhouse stuff we did. One's tactics and training are not dependent upon the amount of pressure the fingers exert so long as you train with the gear you carry and use.

Tell me, why if you acknowledge that skills and training break down under stress, are you insistent that this part of the skills are immune from stress and won't break down, but the ability to rack a slide or switch off a safety are subject to break down under stress?

I know from simulated stress situations, albeit with very modest experience, I can draw, fire and hit and it didn't matter that it was a Smith revolver with Code Eagle rounds as opposed to the Glock I normally carry. The Smith revolver even fit nicely into my Glock holster. I know I can Tap/Rack my gun and shoot under simulated stress, but I can also see that I'm more hamfisted and that the coordination of two hands working together to do one thing slows everything down. Draw and fire is complicated enough, draw and rack and fire is even more complicated.

I don't see where safety rules, and I adhere to Coopers, are going to be altered by the application of a certain amount of pressure.

Carrying one's handgun always at the same position means you train to grip the gun there and then you won't be fumbling around looking for it. It will always be there and will always come out.

Always indexing down the frame of the gun means even if you press with the index finger, which tends to happen, you're pressing against the frame and not the trigger.

Insofar as safeties are concerned, let me reiterate that I think switching off a safety is not a problem so long as you train to switch the safety off when you come up on target and switch the safety on before reholstering. Switching a safety on or off isn't dependent upon exerting between X and Y pounds of pressure. If some jacka** manufacturer ever came up with a semiauto pistol touting a "safer safety" that can only be engaged by exert a minimum of 3 pounds, but no more than 6 pounds, then I'd say do not buy or own that gun if you intend to rely upon it for protection.

I think carrying a gun that has a safety, and not using it, and not training to use it, is a potential problem because if you accidentally bump the safety on, since your training doesn't involve switching off the safety, then the gun ain't gonna fire when you most need it.

 

[kengrubb]

To those who are happy with their choice to carry in Condition 3 (empty chamber), I would offer this bit of intended to be helpful advice.


I would advise that you carry with an empty chamber, hammer back if it's an SA Auto, hammer down if it's a DA auto, and the safety on if there is one. When you practice your draw, practice safety off as you clear the holster, rack, on target, fire. That way you won't ever have to worry about whether the safety is on or off.

 

[rcupka]

While I normally carry an SP101 and of course have all five loaded, when I have carried my 92 FS I do keep one in the chamber. I am very comfortable with the de-cocker/safety, and the DA/SA is the best of both worlds.

 

[2PAK]

Just get a SIG

Rather than add another 7 pages to this thread, why not just get a SIG 220, use the decocker with one in the pipe? At that point, if functions like a revolver with a ton of built in safety devices (in addition to the decocker). No need to rack the slide to chamber a round, you're good to go and we can end this thread. :banghead:

 

[torpid]

Rather than add another 7 pages to this thread, why not just get a SIG 220, use the decocker with one in the pipe? At that point, if functions like a revolver with a ton of built in safety devices (in addition to the decocker). No need to rack the slide to chamber a round, you're good to go and we can end this thread. :banghead:

Well, there you have it- we'll all just get Sigs!

 

[torpid]

Oh no, the P220 also comes in SAO!
We're doomed to continue...

 

[Crawlin]

2PAK Said:
Rather than add another 7 pages to this thread, why not just get a SIG 220, use the decocker with one in the pipe? At that point, if functions like a revolver with a ton of built in safety devices (in addition to the decocker). No need to rack the slide to chamber a round, you're good to go and we can end this thread.

Or a Kahr, or a H&K LEM, or...

 

[kengrubb]

why not just get a SIG 220, use the decocker with one in the pipe?

Or a Glock, and the trigger pull is consistent every time rather than the DA/SA transition with a SIG.

 

[Green Lantern]

G19, or Kel-Tec P3AT...sometimes Bersa Thunder .380. All with one in the pipe!

If you're nervous, try the classic "carry on an empty chamber and notice how many times the saftey's off/hammer falls/the trigger is at the rear at the end of the day." When you're confident that it will remain zero, you'll be good to go.

 

[2PAK]

"Its a SIG World after all, its a SIG world, after all..."

So the next time you at Disneyland and think you're hearing "..its a small world after all.." Just remember it's really saying .."It's a SIG World after all, Its a SIG after all!..."

 

[countertop]

Condition 1

24/7/365

 

[outofbattery]

For some reason,it seems like plenty of people begin to CCW with their autos having an empty chamber but most that carry revolvers don't hesitate to carry with a full cylinder straight away.After a period of time,virtually anyone that has carried without a ready round will start doing so and wonder why in the world they were carrying around such an expensive club.
If you want to carry a gun that isn't ready for action,far be it from me to tell you not to but I will say that it's far more wise to make oneself comfortable and safe with the firearm and carry it as it was intended.

 

[biere]

4.25 or 5 inch 1911 cocked and locked always.

I might get a pocket revolver before too long but it will just be a back up gun.

I think someone said they carry a 1911 on half cock in their fanny pack around page 2. Half cock was not made for carry and I would mount a holster in the fanny pack to keep anything else in that fanny pack from knocking the safety off. The best option would be to buy a fanny pack made for carry since they are set up with a compartment just for the firearm and then nothing can knock the safety off.

My reason for not even considering having the chamber empty is I don't know what both my hands will be doing when I feel the need to draw my firearm.

And for some of the other methods of racking the slide, if it is raining and things are slick you might find your method is not as easy as some make it out to be.

If folks wish to do so, have at it.

I feel like somefolks might find they have a problem and wind up with a jam if the slide does not get racked properly and unless everyone is practicing a lot I figure many folks are going to be slow compared to carrying with one in the chamber.

I put a lot of thought into going with the 1911. Since I have to inform an officer I am carrying in my state and other states I travel to I figured having a 1911 with an actual safety was a good thing. I also like the firearm an awful lot, but since some of the current ccw laws mean I might be handling my firearm a lot, and possably handing it to an officer I figured it was better to consider how I carry it and what I carry with that in mind.

And while I considered that stuff, I am not about to slow myself down by not having a round in the chamber.

There is a trade off, I am happy with my choice and all I can hope for is that others are happy with their choices.