do you guys download -1 your magazines?

[Nom de Forum]

If a magazine is properly designed and fabricated it will not require downloading to be reliable. Problem is not all magazines are properly designed and fabricated. Most are though so it is not much of a problem. There is no need to worry about magazine springs remaining compressed to their designed compression size. Springs don't wear out from that.

Edit: Tirod makes a good point about the problem not being so much the magazine but the mechanical condition of the gun. Yeah, it can be hard to slam a 30 rounder into a closed bolt M16, but you can do it, even if it can be flubbed. There is still room for the magazine spring to compress if it is a properly designed magazine and there is nothing obstructing further compression.

 

[Skribs]

Springs will be stressed more by constant changing of tension than by constant tension.

I used to load the magazine in the pistol to "-1" when I loaded the firearm, my justification was it gave me somewhere to put the +1 round in the chamber if I cleared it. I have since dropped that habit.

In my XDm 40C, I load -1 because I think you're at the very limit with the full capacity, and it tends to be a bit harder to load on a closed chamber and a lot harder to hit the mag release.

 

[DaisyCutter]

"Yeah, it can be hard to slam a 30 rounder into a closed bolt M16, but you can do it, even if it can be flubbed. There is still room for the magazine spring to compress if it is a properly designed magazine and there is nothing obstructing further compression."



My firearms all function fine with fully loaded mags. My duty firearms, as I stated, get downloaded. Yes, I can seat a fully loaded 30 round magazine into the well of either of my AR15s, or even my M16, when I'm focusing on that task. The firearm will work.

I choose to download my mags because often times I'm moving through a strangers backyard, watching a target, partially physically constrained by gear I'm wearing, or prone, or in some way NOT IDEAL. I have old bones and muscles that just sometimes aren't as razor sharp as they once were.

Having 28 versus 30 rounds, or 14 instead of 15 rounds is immaterial. Having a mag fail to seat and having to make a second attempt (or for many folks having it fall on the ground) could be catastrophic.

I never have experienced a bolt stoppage due to a full mag, but when I operate the slide/bolt I can feel the added resistance of the stack of rounds being tightly pushed up into it. It still functions, has never failed, but if I draw my firearm then I'm playing for keeps.

The added margin is like insurance.

Do we all drive our cars everywhere with the tachometer at red line? Do we play our stereo at MAX volume all the time?

Understressed components typically have a longer service life. That's my belief based upon a material science degree and 10 years of performing failure analysis on gas turbine engine components.

Before that, on the farm, I learned that the harder you slam the barn door, the faster it works loose.

So I take my almost 40 years of knowledge and I figure that downloading a round will compensate for less than perfect mechanics on my part, give me some added protection against a crucial stoppage, and maybe even extend the life of my hardware a bit.

More often than not I'm doing a tactical reload, so less one round is a non-issue.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I used to.
Then I realized that it does no good, so I load em up full now.

 

[wally]

"Yeah, it can be hard to slam a 30 rounder into a closed bolt M16, but you can do it, even if it can be flubbed. There is still room for the magazine spring to compress if it is a properly designed magazine and there is nothing obstructing further compression."

The real problem comes when the person loading the mags is not counting and crams 31 into a 30 or 21 into a 20 -- then there is no way to insert it with the bolt forward.

 

[george29]

Both in the military and as LEO I downloaded by at least 10% so in my High Power instead of 13 I loaded 10, my AR; 27. I don't download the 1911 or any single-stack. I don't know if my habits are scientifically based but in 30 years I can't recall a magazine going limp on me although I did once own a Para-Ordnance 14 shot and I got rid of it because not one of the double-stack magazines could reliably hold more than 5 or 6. Even though my issue weapon was a High Power, I don't feel that double stacks are as reliable as single-stacks. My personal opinion.

 

[Drue]

I bought a Glock 23 in 1992. It came with two mags and I bought two more. Except at the range while firing they were constantly fully loaded. By 2012, the springs would still feed perfectly however all four would no longer activate the slide stop on firing the last round. I replaced the springs and all four work perfectly.

Drue

 

[astra600]

My HD guns have thr mags filled, then downloaded by one when I rack the slide. My spare mags are downloaded by one, just because I like to. If I'm going fun shooting the mags get fully loaded at home (LOVE the uplula!) and then whatever I feel like when I get to the shooting area. Any new mags get fully loaded and a trip to the desert (my range) where I load them again to full just to make sure all is well. Every mag Wolff makes springs for gets changed and the originals are kept for back-up, except Mec-Gars. And the new Para-ordnance mags that use coat hanger wire for springs. They were trashed the day I got the mags. Those were Canadian mags. They don't make the hi-caps for most of the old northern models anymore.

 

[RustyShackelford]

No & no .....

In the US military, we(95Bs/MPs) used 05rds of GI ball(230gr FMJs) in our issue 1911a1 .45acp sidearms. Our arms room staff claimed it reduced the stress & tension on the milspec magazines.

In most of my own handguns(pistols), I put the full amount into the factory magazines with 0 problems. I purchased a factory S&W 10rd .45acp mag for my M&P compact pistol to carry as a spare or to shoot on target ranges. I toted the regular flat type in the CCed M&P. My friend liked the S&W magazine pad with the finger rest but I liked the concealment factor.
I considered buying a S&W factory 14rd .45acp pistol mag or 2 for duty uses but I didn't want the compact to be "bottom heavy" or have the M&P magazine be difficult to hold with rapid shooting.
In 2014, most firearm springs & engineering are advanced enough to handle years of use without damage. With cleaning & proper storage, fully loaded magazines won't be a major problem.

 

[shooter1]

18 in a 20. That's how it's done for load out with the M-16. Don't know what the guys do now days. Handguns=fully loaded mags. After many years of competition, I seat magazines with authority. Can't remember the last time I had one fail to seat.
And yeah, I don't unload my mags at the end of a match, and my ready bag contains loaded magazines for my AR.
str1

 

[Drail]

You poor semi auto shooters are at the mercy of the people who designed the magazine (who are unfortunately not necessarily the same people who took bids and purchased the spring). There's very good ones and really bad ones out there. There's high quality properly tempered and stress relieved steel and then there's the imported stuff made from recycled tuna cans. Some won't lose power when left compressed and some will. Know your springs. Many people have told me that they've never seen a magazine spring weakened from just being left fully compressed and not cycled. You will if you work on guns long enough.

 

[Zach S]

All mags are fully loaded unless I have a reason to download them. Most of the time downloading has nothing to do with reliability concerns.

Milspec AR mags are downloaded 2, to ease seating them on an open bolt.

The para P14 magazines I use in my polymer Kimber (Bul M5) are downloaded by one. It used to go through magsprings like crazy - seems like i replaced them two or three times per recoil spring. Since I started loading them to 13 rounds, I haven't changed magsprings once. I have been through two or three recoil springs though. At one point, Mecgar para mags held one less round. Not sure if they still do.

The Blackdog Machine magazines for my AR22 hold 27 rounds, but are marked at 25. That's five groups, five shots each... Oddly enough, there are five diamonds on a redfield sight in target... I think I did the same with mu GSG5, but wont swear to it.

Mags for everything else stay fully loaded. And all of my magazines are numbered, so issues with one magazine dont get blamed on the gun or another magazine.

 

[thedriver101]

nope, always loaded to full capacity. as a fatigue engineer, i do know for a fact that it's the cycles (load/unload repetitions) that wears any sort of metal (aka springs), not it's constant load (or lack thereof). actually, empty magazines aren't fully unloaded either, as a relaxed spring is generally much longer than the magazine (for obvious reasons).

actually, if you wanted to get technical, i believe (can't recall 100%) that springs DO relax over long periods of time due to constant load, but at room temp, that relaxation rate is near as makes no difference zero. at 300F, different story.

so from my engineering background i believe that downloading magazines is a myth. i have yet to find any "gun-guy/expert" testimony that proves OR disproves this - just lots of anecdotal "we did it in vietnam/some other war/some other policy" type of stories. that being said, fully loaded mags can and do interfere with chambering sometimes, since the bolt has to further depress an already full magazine to open. this is why many manual of arms recommend that the chamber be open prior to inserting a full magazine.

 

[Drail]

Ask any LEO armorer who maintains the pump shotguns that are locked into the patrol cars fully loaded and almost never fired about magazine springs failing from compression over time.

 

[Onmilo]

I know a couple LEO armorers and they replace factory shotgun tube springs with stainless steel springs because they don't fail from compression. They fail when the springs rust in the tubes.
All shotguns are removed, unloaded and reloaded at the end of shift turn around and the springs are replaced regularly.
Quite a few Officers are qualified on AR15s and these have replaced shotguns in many squad vehicles.
Magpul magazines are the norm here and they load them full.

 

[kefefs]

What everyone else said. I load my mags to capacity. Sometimes if I get a really tight one I'll download it a couple rounds, then try again every few cycles until I can actually get the capacity in there.

 

[JWH321]

My range instructor -- way back before the turn of the century -- used to tell us that magazines should be unloaded by firing only, never by hand. Everything else he told me was right, no reason why I ever needed to doubt his judgement. So I fill 'em up and shoot 'em out. I never really thought much about it.

 

[Wil Terry]

ACTUALLY, I leave all my magazines by my easy chair and carry and take REAL guns to the range. or to the field....or to town....two if we go to WALjunque.

 

[fastbolt]

The subject of spring service life for magazine (and recoil) can ... and does ... generate no small amount of discussion, debate, disagreement, etc.

Rather than overly concern myself with varying opinions, as a LE firearms instructor since '90, and as an armorer for various makes/models for many years, I've come to look at my own experiences and balance them against what I've been told by different gun makers, as well as one of the major spring makers.

I inspect and replace my mag (and recoil ) springs periodically. I prefer to replace those springs before indications of spring weakening start to manifest as actual feeding & functioning problems on the firing line.

I've seen some of the major gun companies change their recommendations to armorers regarding spring replacement over the years, and if anything, they seem to be leaning toward becoming more conservative in this regard. Or, as one gun company instructor basically commented, when it comes to dedicated defensive/duty weapons, it's better to err on the side of safety.

Some will now provide round count/time-in-service intervals for recommended periodic replacement of such springs, and others will tell armorers to periodically inspect & assess spring serviceability ... and that springs are considered to be wearable parts that may require attention at varying times in different guns.

I've worn out springs by usage, but I've also seen mag springs weaken and stop providing proper tension/function after much less usage, but after having been left fully loaded for a lot of time.

As an instructor, I've seen a LOT of weakened mag spring stoppages occur on qual ranges (for both LE and private citizen training classes), and when I've asked the owners of the affected guns about their guns & mags, the significant amount of time it's involved guns & mags that saw much more "storage" time than actual range usage. In other words, the owners had left their mags loaded for extended periods (sometimes years) without shooting them a lot, and yet their mag springs still weakened to the point where feeding & functioning problems were occurring which were caused by weakened mag springs.

These discussions often remind me of the folks who proclaim how long they can run their motor vehicles on the same set of rubber or how long they can run on the same motor oil without changing oil & filters.

Mag (and recoil) springs are relatively inexpensive maintenance items.

Oh, and when it comes to recoil springs? I like how the instructor in one of my recent armorer recert classes phrased it. He said that fresh springs help keep guns alive.

 

[Potatohead]

Im a downloader myself, just because I dont want any trouble with the mag catching.

Also, do we know "its the compression/decompression" that wears them out? Or do we just like the sound of that and keep repeating it?

I see thedriver101 has answered my question already.

 

[fletcher]

Also, do we know "its the compression/decompression" that wears them out? Or do we just like the sound of that and keep repeating it?

Cycles are required to wear a spring out by fatigue, but springs can lose strength through stress relaxation under static load, even at room temperature. Different processes.

 

[hardluk1]

Nope , my kahrs are all +1's I have range mags and carry mags too.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I keep 1-2 of my 9mm glock mags loaded up at all times...i know this is a recurring subject, but in your experience...does loading the mag to full capacity and leaving it as such for weeks-months on end affect longevity/function over time more than if id load it to only 14 rounds?
What has your experience led you to believe? Thanks

Absolutely not...I load my magazines to the capacities they are designed for.

First of all, they're designed to function this way. Light loading the springs by a single cartridge does little for their effective life span.

Second, storing your magazines fully loaded for extended periods of time has no effect on spring tension. Springs may lose some of their spring tension over life, but ONLY under cyclic stresses...in other words, they have to be loaded and unloaded...and a LOT. And still, springs really only lose significant tension under abusive conditions...such as heat treating to remove temper or severe over compression (which magazines don't experience by design).

Third, for the price of a spring replacement after literally YEARS of service as designed, a measly $7 or so per spring is a pittance.

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=magazine+springs


So load and use your magazines as they were designed to be used! There's no reason not to!

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I download my Glock duty pistols 1 round, and my ARs 2 rounds. I find the higher spring pressure from the stack of tightly loaded rounds can make the first cartridge difficult for the bolt to strip from the magazine. My ARs and Glocks run more smoothly downloaded a round, and it could make a difference in less than optimal conditions. YMMV

Good point. I do not find that with my AR, nor my Glock 26. However, I DO find that with my Glock 29. Experimentation is the key.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

A properly designed magazine can be left fully loaded for its entire service life and be in the same condition as if it was left unloaded the same amount of time. An improperly designed magazine may overextend the spring when fully loaded, bending the spring, but that would be specific to that design.

What is "properly designed?" Is it a spring that's intended to last the life of the gun, or a spring that has been tweaked so that 18 rounds can be fit into the space originally designed to hold 15 rounds?

The quoted comment above -- as a general statement -- was once valid, but may not be nowadays, with the new emphasis on smaller weapons and higher capacities.

IF the gun designer has chosen to sacrifice spring life to gain capacity -- as is clearly the case with some pocket guns and sub-compacts, some of the recoil and mag springs in those guns will eventually lose some of their resilience (power). And even though the spring will eventually lose its ability to work as it should, it was PROPERLY DESIGNED -- it's design was focused on "more capacity" rather than "long life."

For standard capacity guns, like most full-size 9mm guns holding 10-rounds, or 1911s holding 7 rounds, such mag springs will arguably live longer than the shooter. For some of the sub-compacts and some hi-cap mags (depending on the design), the springs will work for a good while, but may eventually soften a bit, leading to malfunction. What causes this? It depends on whether the springs, when the mag is fully loaded, are compressed to their elastic limit. Pressed to that limit and left there, or beyond that point/limit, the springs will degrade -- and some will degrade rapidly.

Why would a gun designer allow that? Because people demand it of them: many shooters want more rounds in smaller guns. Some of the subcompact guns, like the Rohrbaugh R9, have recoil springs that are pushed to their limit, and are designed to last only 250 +/- rounds. Each shot compresses the springs to their elastic limit -- and while they aren't KEPT compressed, the damage is still done. Some magazine springs are that way, too. (I'd be curious to see how long one of the R9 recoil springs would last if the gun was stored with the slide locked open...)

Working a spring isn't the only way to wear it out. Many springs, when compressed, have reserve power (i.e., they're not near their elastic limit.) If you think working a spring is what kills it, tell us how many auto tappet springs you've ever heard of breaking or otherwise failing (i.e., getting soft). Those springs may cycle MANY MILLIONS of times over the life of a car and they almost never fail. Those TAPPET SPRINGS, like some recoil and mag springs, are designed so that when compressed, there is plenty of reserve left -- they never really get close to their ELASTIC LIMIT.)

There's arguably no simple rule about spring life that can be applied to all guns and all applications, but spring makers, like Wolff, recommend downloading a round or two for LONG TERM STORAGE when the mags are hi-caps (or compacts with mags that hold a relatively high number of rounds.)

Some gun designers consider springs RENEWABLE RESOURCES that aren't intended to last forever. And we buy those guns because they're smaller and hold a lot of rounds...

(This topic has come up a number of times on this forum, and we've had input from a couple of engineers who work with steel, and also from a Metallurgist, an engineer who specializes in metal applications. They all agree that metal and nearly all other materials will degrade when pushed to their limits -- wood, plastic, rubber, steel, aluminum, etc.)