Do you have a friend that you will never take to a gun range?

[jeffmack]

I had a roommate in college who was a complete meathead. I found out our university had a shooting club in the basement of our gymnasium, so I took him to the range.

We shot for 30 minutes to an hour. It was his first time, but he still shot like he was an imperial stormtrooper. We were shooting Anshultz .22 target rifles at big paper targets at about 25 yards. The other newbies did fine.

When I was sitting next to him watching him aim and realized that something had riccochetted off one of concrete ceiling supports 2/3's of the way downrange, I decided it was time to call it a day.

He's a doctor now. If I needed medical treatment for anything, even something as basic as having a rabid dog put down, I wouldn't go to him.

 

[Manco]

Yes, there are certain people I know who I strongly suspect would to try to scare me for fun by deliberately pointing a gun at me in jest, and things of that nature. They may lack a certain type of maturity and/or have such an irreverent attitude that I seriously doubt they would respect firearms, and understand how utterly, completely serious I am--and everybody should be--about firearm safety. I will not tolerate any deliberate violations of the basic rules of safety whatsoever.

 

[stchman]

There are many idiots in this world. I know a few myself.

 

[oldbanjo]

Some people have no common sense and no matter how much they train they will still have no common sense. Some of these people are Cops and have shot holes in their car on more than one occasion. It's not safe to shot or hunt with these people, no matter how much training they have.

 

[Sam1911]

Again my point. Much of what I'm seeing here is people too willing to walk away.

Then perhaps you're reading too much into a few of the comments ... like mine. As I said, I am very patient. I try to work WITH someone inexperienced to keep their little goofs from being serious mistakes. But if someone shows me -- or TELLS me -- that they're not interested in fixing a mistake and correcting the attitude that allows it to happen, then I am not under an obligation to remain with them in a fruitless hope that they will come around.

Further, I don't have the legal authority or the physical ability to force them to alter their behaviors. As I can't change someone who doesn't want to change, I can't possibly feel obligated to remain in a dangerous situation.

Also, people incapable of learning are mentally handicapped. So they're probably more of a danger to themselves in general. Not just a gun-range.

Yes. You are correct. They probably are. I cannot be morally obligated to remain in their potential field of discharge, can I?

And what of those who are unwilling? If suggestions, pleas, and entreaties fall on deaf ears -- if the person simply says (through words or deeds), "I don't feel the dangers are real and I'm not going to treat this weapon with respect, no matter what you say," how can I in good conscience stay within range of their irresponsible behavior? I've got a family that needs me. My first duty is to them. Not to someone who willfully disregards instructions.

Passing the buck, shying away from responsibility.

Pretty strong words considering you don't know me and have never observed my manner and protocols when working with new shooters.

Every person must have a threshold beyond which they will not risk life and limb for the sake of teaching the unwilling. Perhaps I won't work with someone who muzzle sweeps me more than once. Perhaps your threshold only is reached at the point of an ambulance ride. I assume that your "patience" would run out before you bleed, but who knows? The line exists somewhere for all of us. That isn't "passing the buck."

If this hypothetical person is as much of a danger as you seem to believe, then hopefully the person they eventually injure or kill isn't your friend or family. My life us one of opportunities. If I go through it statically, then I've failed.

Yes. That is a horrible possibility. Hopefully a great many things don't happen to us or our loved ones. We'll try to mitigate them all as best as we can. At some point the risk to ourselves in the moment from someone either unable or unwilling to be responsible with a weapon is greater than the distantly potential risk that person might pose to someone else at some other time.

You can teach a lesson with all your skill and all your heart -- but that doesn't mean the student must learn and apply the lesson. If you've done the best you safely can, that is all you can do.

 

[Sam1911]

One more thought:

Deciding that we've passed my threshold for suffering the incompetent or unwilling can in itself be a part of the teaching process.

If I am instructing, there is a pretty good chance that I'm working on my range, and/or with my guns, and/or my ammo. That means that at any point in the exercises I can say, "No. That's wrong and dangerous. I am sorry, but I am not going to continue." And I can put my guns and ammo back in the case and escort the "student" from the range. That may make them embarrassed, even angry. But it also sends a pretty universal message that I'm deadly serious. In fact, it is just about the last resort I possibly have to get that message across, and it carries with it the positive virtue of taking me out of harm's way immediately.

Will the lesson get through? Impossible to say. But I have given the last full measure of instruction I can (short of corporal punishment ). Now, if they want to "play" with guns and maybe endanger others, they're going to have to provide the guns, the ammo, and someplace to "play." The burden is as far off me as it could be, and who knows, maybe something I said on the way to the gate might just stick with them.

 

[avs11054]

I've got a friend who I won't ever take to the range again. The sad thing is that we've gone before and had a great time. But recently, he lost his job and became disabled.
He's recently threatened suicide twice. Even though he's getting help, I just could never trust myself to put a gun in his hand again.

 

[Dnaltrop]

I only give up once they attempt to Accident me to death.

Hell I got my Wife shooting! (Nobel prize please)

 

[longhair75]

I have mentioned it here before, but my brother, a former Marine, shot me in the leg once while trying to clear a jam on a rental pistol at his range.

I teased him about it for the rest of his life.....

 

[Bonesinium]

I have 3 roommates. One works in Law Enforcement, owns numerous guns, and I shoot with all the time. One like myself, is military, grew up around guns, and also owns a few firearms. The other has no experience with firearms at all.

I went to the range with my roommate in law enforcement and the roommate the doesn't shoot. I made a point to explain gun safety to him prior to going to the range. We were bringing a number of guns, (.308, .223, .45, .40, and .22lr). We bought him a box of .22's specifically because neither of us wanted him shooting anything else. Well...

1. I saw him swinging the gun around like Rambo pointing it straight in the air. I told him to keep it pointing down range. He said "it is", when clearly it was not.
2. He, without asking, grabbed the .40 to shoot, even when he had never fired a handgun before, and did so when we weren't looking.
3. Left a loaded .22, round chambered, pointing at us, on a table that he was told was specifically for unloaded firearms that we weren't shooting at the time, and tried to blame it on someone else.

I will never let him come to the range with me nevertheless handle firearms around me again.

 

[Kodo]

Hello, everyone! Long time lurker, first time posting.

I have only one friend I won't take shooting. She has a long history of breaking rules designed for safety; she's a terrible driver, aggressive and unrepentant. She's been in court for it twice, and I believe is currently on probation. She takes offense when people correct her actions, even if she's endangering someone else's life. I refuse to even get in a car with her, and there's no way I'd ever let her handle my firearms, or even be around her when she's handling them.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Yes, but unfortunately I did take him.

He was a complete newbie when I took him the first time. He followed all the rules and even managed to hit the target. He didn't own a gun at the time.

The 2nd time we went, he had just purchased a XDm in 9mm. I thought he was doing ok until he asked me if I wanted to shoot his pistol...with it pointing it at me and his finger on the trigger! I got so mad that I just about took it out of his hand and pistol whipped him with it! His response was...WHAT?! It's unloaded!!!

 

[JohnBiltz]

You can teach rules and techniques, you can't teach responsibility after childhood.

 

[Sam1911]

1. I saw him swinging the gun around like Rambo pointing it straight in the air...
2. He, without asking, grabbed the .40 to shoot, ...
3. Left a loaded .22, round chambered, pointing at us, ...

It sounds like this situation is past and too far gone for salvage at this point, bit it is incredibly illustrative of what I meant by providing a setting in which minor errors cannot become large-scale safety violations.

It is very rare when we shoot that there are multiple firearms just out on benches, uncased and in reach of a group. It also happens to be fairly rare for us that more than one shooter is "hot" on the line at once (our competition style arrangement usually dictates this).

Further, no new shooter would EVER have access to even one weapon without a coach or mentor right there at their elbow, walking them through the steps, providing direction, encouragement, and a very physical safety presence. (That means ready to put hands on the gun and STOP something from happening, RIGHT NOW, if need be.)

While we might assume someone without experience wouldn't grab a firearm off a bench, if that message isn't clear from the start -- in fact if the opportunity even exists -- why would they not? If someone isn't at their elbow saying, "Nice shot. Now, drop the magazine, lock back the slide, show me it's a clear weapon ... good... now place it on the bench, muzzle downrange," why would we ever assume they'd figure that out or remember to do it on their own?

I don't mean to be an unnecessarily harsh critic, but it sounds like you kind of set up your pal for failure. You didn't provide the layers of safety that the sport/hobby really requires in the beginning stages. Yeah, he was irresponsible and dangerous. But it doesn't sound like you were providing any attention to him at all -- and certainly weren't sending the messages (by words, actions, and body language) that this is a life-and-death serious matter.

If you set them up to have to work REALLY hard to screw up that badly -- THEN you can righteously blame them if they do. Otherwise, check yourself... A bench full of guns and ammo, two "experienced" shooters off concentrating on their own stuff, and a new guy left to figure things out for himself is a recipe for involuntary manslaughter!

 

[mustang_steve]

Yes, took him last year on his birthday....he kept leaving it on the bench loaded, and other bad behaviors.

He's a good friend of mine, but for safety's sake, he's not going back to the range with me until he gets a more disciplined mind, one that will be able to get past showboating and more on safety. One doesn't need excessive risk to have fun.

 

[Old krow]

To answer your question, yes... once.

Well how was he supposed to know the 4 rules if no one ever told him? Do your part and educate him. If he won't listen, then you have something to complain about.

I agree. Some of it should be common sense, but I also go over this regardless of whether or not they need it. If they will not listen you could be potentially putting yourself or others (who had no choice in you bring your guest to the range) in danger.

Further, no new shooter would EVER have access to even one weapon without a coach or mentor right there at their elbow, walking them through the steps, providing direction, encouragement, and a very physical safety presence. (That means ready to put hands on the gun and STOP something from happening, RIGHT NOW, if need be.)

I agree with that as well. At the range in which I am a member, we are responsible for our guests. I believe that it is the way it should be. It is my opinion that we as gun owners, shooters, and supporters of RKBA that we should take an active role in the safe operations of firearms, teaching safe operations, and our overall image.

On the flip side, I have a couple friends that have been shooting for a while. We go to the range quite a bit. We know the rules and we follow them. None of us are above safety. If I did something questionable I know that they would say something to me. I would not be offended. In my opinion, if someone has a blatant disregard for those rules, our safety, and the safety of the others on the range and it has been clearly explained to them, I will not take them nor go with them. We should consider other's safety as well. If some guy is taking his kids out to teach them to shoot he should not have to worry about someone that I took being a danger to those on the range.

 

[Dookie]

The first thing I do when a friend or acquaintance mentions they want to go shooting or buy a gun is that they should take a hunters safety course. The responsibility is to great to take a chance, I even tell them I will accompany them. A touch up of the rules never hurt anyone.

Plus if they fail the testing that is meant for a 12 year old that just means they are not responsible, or smart enough to own or shoot a gun. I tell them that first

 

[dec41971]

I have a few very anti friends who wouldn't go or touch one if I paid them to. Then there is this one flaky guy. Oh I offered to take him, he was very excited, but he is so flaky, I changed my mind about it. Smart engineer, but he scares the bejesus out of me with his irresponsibility surround all types of safety. He has the luck of the devil too all his stupid antics have never really resulted in him injuring anyone himself included, but as with all luck, it eventually runs out and your number comes up. I'd hate that to happen at a range, so my better judgment prevailed.

 

[Sgt_R]

I was shooting on my father in-law's property, and the neighbor came out to see what the commotion was about. One thing lead to another, and I offered to let the guy shoot a couple of our guns. Things went fairly well for a while, until he turned around and swept all three of us (father in-law, fiance, and myself) with a loaded 9mm, finger on the trigger.

Needless to say, I will never hand that man a loaded firearm again.

R

 

[antiquus]

Most people at public ranges make me nervous. Some of them will cause me to pick up my stuff and demand another lane far away.

OTOH, I have 8 year old kinfolk in WV (way up the hollers) that already know and handle guns safely and I never have to look twice.

 

[TexasGunbie]

Most people at public ranges make me nervous. Some of them will cause me to pick up my stuff and demand another lane far away.

Definitely, when I am at the range, I am always afraid of those that had recently purchased a gun and decided to take their girlfriend along, so both of them don't know what they are doing at all... then the guy is too proud to humbly admit he doesn't know jack at all... and since the guy didn't know what he's suppose to do, and the girl is relying on the guy to show him, usually you hear the guy say, "babe, just point and shoot."

anyways, I am very careful around those people.