Some people just don't understand safety.

[TexasGunbie]

Well... so many threads ago I mentioned a friend that pointed an "assumed" empty gun at me and his reason was that if I handed him a gun, it has to be empty, why else would I hand it to him... anyways, that was last time.

Today, the same friend asked if we were gonna hit the gun range again. I told him I am attending an IDPA this Saturday, so he wants to come even more than ever now. I hesitated in bringing him to a IDPA match since he doesn't have a gun nor know much about gun safety. So I told him that I don't know if I should take him consider he is new, and that there are safety issues when a beginner is moving and shooting at the same time. I was shock when he was immediately offended and said that it is ridiculous to say that there would be safety concerns, because every course that is setup should be safe, and it would be impossible for him to accidentally shoot something he shouldn't.

I don't know what to say to him anymore, he's a very good friend but if he doesn't realize that accident can happen around firearm, and that he needs to get his own gun and be adequate in clearing jams, working the safety, and keep in mind the many things to be conscious of during the match, then I don't know how to talk to him.

Anyone had similar issues with a friend? or friends that are just never safety conscious? How should I talk to this friend to steer him to the proper direction?

 

[shockwave]

Your friend needs to learn the basic rules of firearm safety.

Teach him the 4 rules - or 3, depending on how you know them - and make sure he can repeat and demonstrate them back to you.

As I've said before, my neighbor is an enthusiast, and we have a drill we do whenever we show each other our new purchases: 1. Approach with gun pointed in safe direction. 2. Remove magazine or clip or whatever holds the rounds. 3. Demonstrate that the chamber is empty.

Then, watch your friend confirm all the above, and ensure for himself that the gun is safe, prior to handling. At all times, Rule 2 is inviolate: no sweeping. That's the basic paradigm, and if followed religiously, there will be no danger of accidents. Anybody who can't do this has no business attending an IDPA event.

 

[BruceB]

So, is it worth saving someone's feelings, and then seeing him kill someone else...or even YOU?

I've worked almost fifty years in underground mining. and I have SEEN people killed because an unsafe worker was not reported or corrected. IT HAPPENS!

Your "friend" is a fool, unaware of, or uncaring about, his shortcomings. Either way, he's a deadly menace to everyone near him when he handles a firearm.

This is a prime time-and-place for "no more mister nice guy". If you don't act to isolate yourself, then whatever occurs will be partly your fault. Protect yourself (and, by extension, your family and your future).

Harsh? Of course, but death is forever, amigo. The ball's in your court.

 

[TexasGunbie]

Bruce, you're absolutely right. I rarely bring up the topic of gun around him anymore because I just don't feel safe. I think my buddy have too much ego to learn anything.
If I were to go over the safety rules with him, which I have before, he probably treat it as a paranoid drill. I realize that some people just don't have the maturity to handle a firearm, and this is regardless of age, some people just don't understand safety.
But I throw this discussion out there to see if there are any ways to talk to someone like that.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Why not try this.

Offer to take your friend to the match, but only to watch. Let him see how they do things. Explain the safety procedures and let him see them in application.

Maybe he'll start to get the idea.

 

[kingpin008]

I'm with Bruce - not every accident is going to end up in injury or death, but when it does, there will be no warning.

If he still refuses to pull his head out of the sand and accept that he's not infallible and should take firearms safety seriously, then he doesn't get to shoot around others. Period. It's just not worth the risk.

As far as taking him to the match as an observer only, I kinda worry that it'd just bolster his current attitude of "See? It's fool-proof!"

That's the problem - he seems either unable or unwilling to take the safety requirements seriously, because of an unrealistic idea of how much common sense he has, how immately safe the shooting sports are, and how simple it is to use a gun. That's not going to change without him having a HUGE "come to Jesus" meeting. Unfortunately, that meeting will probably result in somebody being hurt or killed.

 

[hardworker]

If he has trouble with those rules, just give him the cliffnotes version of gun safety:

If you think it might be a bad idea, it probably is.

 

[Old krow]

I agree with shockwave and Bruce.

First and foremost is safety. Make sure that you're being safe and following the proper procedures and then make sure that he is. You have control over what you do, that part is easy. If you have explained it and practiced it with him, exhausted your resources so-to-speak, then put it to him bluntly.

"no more mister nice guy"

As far as taking him to the match as an observer only, I kinda worry that it'd just bolster his current attitude of "See? It's fool-proof!"

I have a tendency to agree. The problem appears to be that he has very little respect for the safety rules concerning firearms and little respect for what they can do. They are requirements. It's the price of admission.

Here's a question, and you've already answered it, do you feel safe around him with a gun? Assuming that you and I go to the same range, am I supposed to feel safe around him? Can that be remedied?

Yes, I did have a friend like that once. We went hunting together twice. The first time was normal except that he was a bad shot. The second time he swept 2 of us with a 12ga. The difference was, he fired, multiple times. Fortunately for us it wasn't serious. Unbelievably, the mayhem didn't stop there. It actually happened again on the way out. Fortunately is was a bird hunt and #6 doesn't hurt too bad once you get a little ways away from it.

No, we never went hunting again. We're not even on speaking terms. In fact, I think my other friend actually considered returning fire because he wasn't even aware that he was shooting at us.

I have known 3 people personally to get shot via negligent discharge. One in the foot (broke rule #1), one in the leg (broke #2 & #3), and a small child got hit in the head (broke #4). It was horribly sad. A guy with a rifle (.270 I believe), shooting at a range, shot up instead of into the target berm. Of course he said "it's okay, there's nobody around and it wouldn't do anything anyway." The baby was on the front porch in a swing and the circumstances just lined up for it. I went to school with the dad and we used to hunt together. That's not something that you want to be a part of in any way shape or form.

I still take new people to the range all the time. I am responsible for my guests at my range. I will explain the rules, I will help where they need it. If they show a blatant disregard for those rules, we're done. Those tend to be isolated cases though, as most folks that I have seen are willing to learn. The ones that are not willing to put forth an honest effort to be safe, IMHO, you should put some distance between.

 

[kingpin008]

If they show a blatant disregard for those rules, we're done.

This, I think, sums up the situation perfectly.

 

[armoredman]

I agree. I know two people with hand damage from disregarding safety and common sense, one with 9 fingers now, and another who required months of physical thereapy before he could use his hand again. If safety is not a high priority item with him, I would not hang out with him at all, because I'll bet that attitude is not just restricted to guns.

 

[doc2rn]

Safety is a state of mind but saying

Your "friend" is a fool, unaware of, or uncaring about, his shortcomings. Either way, he's a deadly menace to everyone near him when he handles a firearm.

is not very high road. My family comes from KY with alot of them being miners who didnt make it past 3rd grade. Does that make all miners stupid deadly menaces to society? I dont think so, moving on.
If you have not taken the time to educate your friend, how much of a friend are you being by neglecting to help him understand your point of view? I don't think a match is the place for training either. I never had formal training until I entered the service, but I have had a gun since I was 11. I just think people learn things differently, and maybe as a friend who understands you might come up with a way to approach the subject without such a dramatic impact.

 

[krazykeny]

ANY Friend who pointed a gun at ME would be an EX Friend.

 

[CoRoMo]

If you want to keep him around as your friend, take him. He needs formal instruction. He's deflecting the informal instruction that is coming from you, so maybe he needs to get it from someone else. I imagine that once he is reprimanded by a range officer, what you've told him will sink in a bit more. Sometimes we write off a source of advice and ignore the wisdom. But when we hear the same advice from a third party who we regard as knowledgeable, it makes a difference

 

[kingpin008]

My family comes from KY with alot of them being miners who didnt make it past 3rd grade. Does that make all miners stupid deadly menaces to society?

Lacking in formal education =/= being willfully ignorant of necessary safety procedures despite prior instruction.

If you have not taken the time to educate your friend, how much of a friend are you being by neglecting to help him understand your point of view?

He educated him the first time. How many times should someone have to say "Don't point a gun at me, and don't keep your finger on the trigger" before they give up and moe away for fear of being shot?

I don't think a match is the place for training either.

100% agreed. If he wants to accompany TexasGunbie to the range again, that's fine - but it should be a training session only, perhaps with another experienced gunner. That way, Mr. "I Know Everything" has two people willing to curtail his nonsense if he decides to act the fool.

 

[TexasGunbie]

If you want to keep him around as your friend, take him. He needs formal instruction. He's deflecting the informal instruction that is coming from you, so maybe he needs to get it from someone else. I imagine that once he is reprimanded by a range officer, what you've told him will sink in a bit more. Sometimes we write off a source of advice and ignore the wisdom. But when we hear the same advice from a third party who we regard as knowledgeable, it makes a difference

Well when we hit the range, he's fine. But gun ownership is way beyond just hitting the range. It's easy to follow rules when someone is watching you. I don't think I would take him to shoot anymore. Consider that I have taken him before, I think some people only sees it as a game, therefore they don't actively study the rules and keep safety in mind.

When I started shooting, there was a zeal in me to get a firearm, become proficient with it, be conscious of safety, and be responsible to others. But over the year I realize some people just want to do it for the heck of it as if they are going to sky dive. And they think that they just point and shoot, but never thought in the moment of excitement, they may accidentally point the gun where they shouldn't.

100% agreed. If he wants to accompany TexasGunbie to the range again, that's fine - but it should be a training session only, perhaps with another experienced gunner. That way, Mr. "I Know Everything" has two people willing to curtail his nonsense if he decides to act the fool.

I wish I know another experienced shooter. I am a student, so I rarely bring up the topic of guns around my friends, so I don't really know anyone that shoots. In this liberal school environment, I really hesitate to talk about guns with my friends.

 

[CoRoMo]

...some people only sees it as a game, therefore they don't actively study the rules and keep safety in mind.

...some people just want to do it for the heck of it as if they are going to sky dive.

This is unfortunately true. You certainly know more about this guy than any of us can imagine. Good luck.

 

[Vertical453]

Almost all of my friends are like this. Being 20 years old, almost everyone I know is still in the "I'm invincible" dream world and it shows in how they handle firearms and other matters.

I don't take them shooting anymore. When they grow up, and act like adults, then I will.

 

[Old krow]

Most everyone that has replied here all acknowledges that you know your friend far better than we do. You're ultimately going to be the one that needs to call it one way or the other.

If you want to keep him around as your friend, take him. He needs formal instruction.

This is definitely worth looking into. If you want to make it even easier, both of you guys go together. At this point in my life I don't have very friends that have not had some sort of training, be it MIL or LEO. However, if I thought that perhaps my son needs it I'd be more than happy to go with him.

And they think that they just point and shoot, but never thought in the moment of excitement, they may accidentally point the gun where they shouldn't.

It's good that you think this way. It's also good that you can recognize it make responsible decisions based on your knowledge.

 

[FriedRice]

Almost all of my friends are like this. Being 20 years old, almost everyone I know is still in the "I'm invincible" dream world and it shows in how they handle firearms and other matters.

I don't take them shooting anymore. When they grow up, and act like adults, then I will.

I was going to ask how old he is. It might be a function of age. And ego. Me personally, wouldn't take him to the match or the range. The only way I'd let him touch a firearm now would be to have him take a basic handgun class with a really strict instructor. The gentle approach hasn't worked.

 

[CapnMac]

because every course that is setup should be safe, and it would be impossible for him to accidentally shoot something he shouldn't.

This may be the most dangerous thing about your friend. There are those who insist "diet" beverages must reduce because "t would be illegal to call'em diet otherwise." One need not travel very far on urban roads to observe similar behavior where the tautology pf "not happened yet" is equated, even presumed to be mandated, as "cannot happen, ever."

Some of these people can be approached. Some lead insular lives where only the ninnyhammers and wet blankets worry about things that "never happen."

Your instincts on which way your friend is, may be "telling" you something here. Might be good to follow those instincts.

 

[Mr.510]

I'd have a talk with him. Say, "You pointed a gun at me and that is never acceptable." Then tell him that you value his friendship and safety very much. Tell him that he needs to take a firearms safety course and follow ALL of the rules ALL of the time. Personally, I'd offer to pay for it as this will soften the blow to his ego. Tell him that accidents happen to all of us and following the rules keeps anyone from getting hurt when, not if, they do. Until he completes this course the two of you are doing nothing gun-related together.

 

[benEzra]

If he attends the match and breaks the 180 rule, he'll be kicked out. That might, possibly, teach him a much-needed lesson. It might also do him good to be in a crowd of people who are religiously following the safety rules...might be a reality check for him. One could hope.

So you could explain the rules and think about bringing him (IF he is mature enough to take correction from a RSO), but if you do, you might want to let the RSO know to keep a close eye on him ahead of time.

 

[LHRGunslinger]

Friends come & go. He'll either get over being told that he doesn't even know enough to know that he knows nothing or he wont. Hurt feelings aren't worth risking someone getting hurt or dead.

 

[SSN Vet]

it is ridiculous to say that there would be safety concerns, because every course that is setup should be safe, and it would be impossible for him to accidentally shoot something he shouldn't.

Personaly.... I wouldn't take him.

If he's a close friend and the relationship is worth it to you, consider inviting him to attend a basic pistol class with you.

 

[TexasGunbie]

Yeah, I'm in my 20s also. It seems people mature slower now days, and most people at my age had not been around anything that require too much thinking regarding safety. Most of my friends rarely use any tools, so let alone handguns.

Here is something irrelevant, but few days ago I was in the school's cafeteria, and pulled out a pocket knife to cut an apple I had brought for lunch... it was just a small pocket knife, and my friends kinda freaked out. I am an immigrant, but I have been here for a few years now. Has it always been like this in America? A few of my professors carry pocket knife on them too. It's just a tool, nothing more...

As for my friend, if he decides to get his own gun, then I'll hang out with him at the gun range. He's been talking about getting one for a year or two and hasn't gotten one, so he's probably isn't taking it too seriously.