Do you really get what you pay for?
- Thread starter FMF Doc
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Mines worth about 10 bucks if im carrying a 45acp (approximately 1.25 x 8)
and 19 bucks if im carrying a 9mm (approximately 1.05 x 18). PDX1's bullet of choice.
Pistol whipping isnt why i carry so brand of gun doesnt matter to me
However, I do believe you get what you pay for thou. Run a jennings against a glock and see which one fails first. Buy cheap Chinese tools and be prepaired to replace them.JohnBiltz
Member
In my opinion most of the high end stuff is over priced.
Shadow 7D
Member
you have to know what you are paying for
A 5K custom race gun AIN'T a EDC, hell it might not even shoot as well as the a Metro Arms, but you paid for the steel, the machining that is within x thousandth, the HAND (and at 1500+ the gun had better be hand mated for me to pay that) mating of all the parts so they to exactly together, and the parts that got bungled in the process.
That said, I'm sure if you put a different roll stamp on a PI gun, wrote 'made in the Philippines' really small on the frame and put some sort of fancy name and patriotic slogan.
Talked about the "Old world craftsmanship of our gunsmiths, hand assembling each gun to the original PRECISE* military tolerances, building them just like John Moses Browning meant them to be"
And put a price tag of 2K on them, pay a few gunwriters to put out fluff pieces on how this is 'The Next GreatAMERICAN gun....'
You would have customers lining up out the door.
Hell, look at Mitchell's Mausers
Here is a guy who FAKES (Humps in collector Parlance) K98K's
Pawns off Yugo Mausers that aren't even built off a 98 action (its based on the FN 24) puts FAKE codes in crappy script....
and people pay MORE than what a real 98 costs.
A 5K custom race gun AIN'T a EDC, hell it might not even shoot as well as the a Metro Arms, but you paid for the steel, the machining that is within x thousandth, the HAND (and at 1500+ the gun had better be hand mated for me to pay that) mating of all the parts so they to exactly together, and the parts that got bungled in the process.
That said, I'm sure if you put a different roll stamp on a PI gun, wrote 'made in the Philippines' really small on the frame and put some sort of fancy name and patriotic slogan.
Talked about the "Old world craftsmanship of our gunsmiths, hand assembling each gun to the original PRECISE* military tolerances, building them just like John Moses Browning meant them to be"
And put a price tag of 2K on them, pay a few gunwriters to put out fluff pieces on how this is 'The Next GreatAMERICAN gun....'
You would have customers lining up out the door.
Hell, look at Mitchell's Mausers
Here is a guy who FAKES (Humps in collector Parlance) K98K's
Pawns off Yugo Mausers that aren't even built off a 98 action (its based on the FN 24) puts FAKE codes in crappy script....
and people pay MORE than what a real 98 costs.
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Ash
Member
Binoculars are a great example. Cheap ones are crap. Very expensive ones are superb. Mid-priced ones are the ones you get the real value for. The Cornell Department of Ornithology performed an exhaustive review of binoculars and this is what they discovered: They found cheap ones were just okay, some were usable, others not at all. They discovered binoculars priced from $200-$500 were outstanding. Most telling, though, was that the highest priced binoculars were really not any better than the mid-range ones. They were better, but not by a wide enough margin to make them worth the money. Bird watchers give any binoculars the greatest work-out, their opinions count.
Zeiss was better than a Nikon Monarch, but not twice as good (or three or four or five times better). So, the real "getting what you pay for" happened in the mid-range. Too cheap and you got junk. High end you got good stuff, but not so much better than midrange to justify the costs (beyond bragging rights).
In guns, can anyone tell me that a $2,500 scoped M14 clone is better than a Savage 110? Or, a $5,000 SVD is more accurate than a PSL (I own both the SVD and PSL, and I can tell you the SVD is better, but not that much better).
The midrange is where you get what you pay for. Snap On wrenches really are better than NAPA Professional, but not five times better (and I own both of those, as well).
Zeiss was better than a Nikon Monarch, but not twice as good (or three or four or five times better). So, the real "getting what you pay for" happened in the mid-range. Too cheap and you got junk. High end you got good stuff, but not so much better than midrange to justify the costs (beyond bragging rights).
In guns, can anyone tell me that a $2,500 scoped M14 clone is better than a Savage 110? Or, a $5,000 SVD is more accurate than a PSL (I own both the SVD and PSL, and I can tell you the SVD is better, but not that much better).
The midrange is where you get what you pay for. Snap On wrenches really are better than NAPA Professional, but not five times better (and I own both of those, as well).
Omaha-BeenGlockin
Member
Enter the Ruger P95----for $300(give or take) it really doesn't get any better.
They are accurate(enough)--very reliable and will be chugging along long after many higher priced pistols will be in the scrap heap.
Ugly? Yes, but who cares--you only spent $300 and it works like all get out.
Heavy? Not really, at 27oz its 3/4 of a pound less weight than a 5in 1911.
Resale is nothing--but you only have $300 bucks into it brand new.
Being as I consider the pistol as generally weak and ineffective compared to a rifle or shotgun --there really isn't any good reason to wrap up a ton of money into pistols when it would be better spent on upgrading a rifle or shotgun purchase.
And yes, I'm thinking about getting another P95 today.
You definitely get your money's worth there.
They are accurate(enough)--very reliable and will be chugging along long after many higher priced pistols will be in the scrap heap.
Ugly? Yes, but who cares--you only spent $300 and it works like all get out.
Heavy? Not really, at 27oz its 3/4 of a pound less weight than a 5in 1911.
Resale is nothing--but you only have $300 bucks into it brand new.
Being as I consider the pistol as generally weak and ineffective compared to a rifle or shotgun --there really isn't any good reason to wrap up a ton of money into pistols when it would be better spent on upgrading a rifle or shotgun purchase.
And yes, I'm thinking about getting another P95 today.
You definitely get your money's worth there.
45_auto
Member
Maybe for you, but not for me and a LOT of other gunowners out there.
To keep this thread from getting high jacked I'm going to insert my. 02 now. I have a ruger sr1911 and kimber ultra carry. My brother has a ria and had a colt. I personally think my ruger is the nicest I have shot out of all of the above. It was $675 brand new right BEFORE they hit the shelves. Now is the kimber and colt bad? Absolutely not. Shoot better than mine? No. I have shot a nighthawk ad well and it was sooooo sweet but I can't justify that price on a pistol. But we all have opinions like butt holes. Some just stink more than others.
Sent from my DROID RAZR
Sent from my DROID RAZR
jimmyraythomason
Member
Small claims court is full of people who thought they were getting what they paid for.
TimboKhan
Member
Aside from the fact that I think it is ridiculous to imply that a gun, by merit of it's pricetag, is somehow more reliable than any of a number of other proven, reliable arms that happen to be cheaper, I think this question really boils down to training.
Fact is, an expensive gun isn't going to make one bit of difference if you don't train with it. The guy who shoots 1 box of ammo with his Nighthawk is going to be at a marked disadvantage to the lady that shoots 5000 rounds a year through her Glock. The skills are more important than the tool.
Now, with that said, custom guns do have some things that justify their cost, and when you consider the man hours that go into them, they are probably priced about right. I cannot afford a custom pistol, but I no longer look down my nose at those who do largely because now that I have experienced what that really means I do believe that there is a difference between a custom gun and a production gun. Doesn't mean that a high level of skill cannot be attained with a production gun, just means that everything feels a little better with a custom gun is all.
Fact is, an expensive gun isn't going to make one bit of difference if you don't train with it. The guy who shoots 1 box of ammo with his Nighthawk is going to be at a marked disadvantage to the lady that shoots 5000 rounds a year through her Glock. The skills are more important than the tool.
Now, with that said, custom guns do have some things that justify their cost, and when you consider the man hours that go into them, they are probably priced about right. I cannot afford a custom pistol, but I no longer look down my nose at those who do largely because now that I have experienced what that really means I do believe that there is a difference between a custom gun and a production gun. Doesn't mean that a high level of skill cannot be attained with a production gun, just means that everything feels a little better with a custom gun is all.
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Hand fitting and precision in the initial manufacture both drive costs, and may not result in a significantly better gun as compared to the increased cost. Doubling the cost will typically not double the inherent value.
In 1911 land, a cheap gun is usually not well supported by the factory. It may also be slightly out of spec, and require more work to fit upgrade/performance/replacement parts. Also, any money sunk into a cheap gun disappears from the universe as if down a black hole. Put an expensive match barrel in your RIA and see how much it sells for on gunbroker.
Gun owners are pretty cheap when it comes to spending their money, but most never push a gun beyond a small percentage of its capabilities. Most are happy with the cheaper gun because it never disappoints while being shot at the indoor range once a year with 50 rounds of hard ball ammo.
If you shoot in a competitive sport, or go on an expensive hunt, or travel for either, or go to a training class, then the cost of a cheap gun is swallowed up in your overall shooting costs. Spending another couple hundred bucks to get a slightly better gun, that does not fail you when you have to make the shot count, is a cheap price to avoid serious disappointment. Check prices on a two day (or 4 day!) class at gunsite, and then imagine it all going away because you brought an Ok-but-not-really-good gun and wasted your time, and the instructor's, trying to massage your OK gun back into action after some serious hangup. Or, imagine losing that trophy buck of a lifetime. Or losing that big regional competition due to an equipment failure.
The better gun will not always work, nor the OK gun always fail. But I believe in probability and statistics.
In 1911 land, a cheap gun is usually not well supported by the factory. It may also be slightly out of spec, and require more work to fit upgrade/performance/replacement parts. Also, any money sunk into a cheap gun disappears from the universe as if down a black hole. Put an expensive match barrel in your RIA and see how much it sells for on gunbroker.
Gun owners are pretty cheap when it comes to spending their money, but most never push a gun beyond a small percentage of its capabilities. Most are happy with the cheaper gun because it never disappoints while being shot at the indoor range once a year with 50 rounds of hard ball ammo.
If you shoot in a competitive sport, or go on an expensive hunt, or travel for either, or go to a training class, then the cost of a cheap gun is swallowed up in your overall shooting costs. Spending another couple hundred bucks to get a slightly better gun, that does not fail you when you have to make the shot count, is a cheap price to avoid serious disappointment. Check prices on a two day (or 4 day!) class at gunsite, and then imagine it all going away because you brought an Ok-but-not-really-good gun and wasted your time, and the instructor's, trying to massage your OK gun back into action after some serious hangup. Or, imagine losing that trophy buck of a lifetime. Or losing that big regional competition due to an equipment failure.
The better gun will not always work, nor the OK gun always fail. But I believe in probability and statistics.
JohnBT
Member
""You get what you pay for" to me is an outdated viewpoint for the simple minded. Its never been really true, but it kinda sorta worked as a rule of thumb in the pre-internet days when doing research on items was much harder. People found it easier to judge items based on cost rather than determine their merit."
Simple minded am I? Yeah, I must have been really stupid back in the '50s and '60s and '70s and '80s when it came to buying guns. I sure am glad the internet has made everybody above average or even really smart like you.
I believe you don't usually get the best quality product by paying less, whether it's tires, steaks, boots, guns or whatever.
John
Simple minded am I? Yeah, I must have been really stupid back in the '50s and '60s and '70s and '80s when it came to buying guns. I sure am glad the internet has made everybody above average or even really smart like you.
I believe you don't usually get the best quality product by paying less, whether it's tires, steaks, boots, guns or whatever.
John
This sounds like the truth. A better reply than I could make.
MachIVshooter
Member
I prefer the saying the other way:
"You don't always get what you pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for"
Lots of guns are over-priced or bordering on it. Colt & Kimber (of which I own both) are on that fine line. Rock Island guns are a great value, but the $400 GI models certainly aren't on par with the Colts and Kimbers.
Like anything, the return on your dollar gets proportionately smaller as the price climbs. A gun that cost ten times as much as another doesn't usually perform 10 times better. As a general observation, the more expensive versions do tend to perform better, though. Having said that, it is largely dependent on your needs/wants/budget. If you're not going to shoot competetively and are just after a decent range blaster on a workin' man's income, the cost/benefit ratio is much higher with something like the RIA than a Wilson, nighthawk, etc. OTOH, if you are going to compete, don't expect to place with that stock RIA up against guys shooting finely tuned custom guns. It just won't happen (unless the other competitors all show up massively hungover or something).
In my experience, there is a minimum dollar figure to get acceptable quality, reliability, durability and performance. For centerfire automatics bought new, I wouldn't consider anything under ~$250 to be worth buying.
"You don't always get what you pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for"
Lots of guns are over-priced or bordering on it. Colt & Kimber (of which I own both) are on that fine line. Rock Island guns are a great value, but the $400 GI models certainly aren't on par with the Colts and Kimbers.
Like anything, the return on your dollar gets proportionately smaller as the price climbs. A gun that cost ten times as much as another doesn't usually perform 10 times better. As a general observation, the more expensive versions do tend to perform better, though. Having said that, it is largely dependent on your needs/wants/budget. If you're not going to shoot competetively and are just after a decent range blaster on a workin' man's income, the cost/benefit ratio is much higher with something like the RIA than a Wilson, nighthawk, etc. OTOH, if you are going to compete, don't expect to place with that stock RIA up against guys shooting finely tuned custom guns. It just won't happen (unless the other competitors all show up massively hungover or something).
In my experience, there is a minimum dollar figure to get acceptable quality, reliability, durability and performance. For centerfire automatics bought new, I wouldn't consider anything under ~$250 to be worth buying.
JohnBT
Member
"You don't always get what you pay for, but you never get what you don't pay for"
I like that. Well put.
I like that. Well put.
MachIVshooter
Member
For $10k, that thing better last at least a half million miles! Lol.
(Just funnin'......I know it's nothing but a random example, and the point remains the same
)mcdonl
Member
In general, if you only get what you pay for you did not do that well. You should get much more than what you pay for.
What are you paying for? Are you paying to have a 1911, just so you can experience owning one, have a reliable gun and a new toy? Thats easy. You can find several 1911 pistols for under $500 and you will get much more than you paid for.
Are you looking for a piece of history, an early Colt 1911 A1... Ok, your going to pay more but you would get what you paid for.
Same thing if you are looking for a piece of finley crafted machinery that you want to use hard and often... again, you will pay more but you should still get more than you paid for.
What are you paying for? Are you paying to have a 1911, just so you can experience owning one, have a reliable gun and a new toy? Thats easy. You can find several 1911 pistols for under $500 and you will get much more than you paid for.
Are you looking for a piece of history, an early Colt 1911 A1... Ok, your going to pay more but you would get what you paid for.
Same thing if you are looking for a piece of finley crafted machinery that you want to use hard and often... again, you will pay more but you should still get more than you paid for.
I believe the law of diminishing returns applies to firearms as well as many other things. At a certain point the extra dollars are buying you a number of things that some people value, and some don't. It could be history, fit, and finish, reputation, name brand, perceived exclusivity, etc.
If you shop wisely, you can get good value, but that is SUBJECTIVE upon what each individual values, and we're all different.
If you shop wisely, you can get good value, but that is SUBJECTIVE upon what each individual values, and we're all different.
Baba Louie
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
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I do know this to be true in my own few cases... (warning, old adage ahead)
)
No matter if it was Ben Franklin or Aldo Gucci who said it, I think it true. Buy as much "quality" as your pocketbook can afford. My problem most often (in regards to buying high end weaponry) is "champagne taste, beer budget" and the fact that I need to replenish more ammo than guns at this point in life keeps me from spending foolishly (not to mention a perpetual lack of funds as of late.
)
TimboKhan
Member
[QUOTEchampagne taste, beer budget][/QUOTE]
Just as there is crappy champagne, there is also good beer. Price is not an indicator of quality, though it does suggest a higher standard that may or may not exist depending on your point of view and wallet.
Just as there is crappy champagne, there is also good beer. Price is not an indicator of quality, though it does suggest a higher standard that may or may not exist depending on your point of view and wallet.
dcarch
Member
I feel like generally, you do get what you pay for. For example, I would be somewhat wary of any new handgun that was below $300... Just my opinion, though.
RickMD
Member
If one wants a "truck gun" there's no sense in buying a $1000+ 1911. A good, functional, reliable one can be had for $400. Conversely, if a buyer is looking for aesthetics, quality sights, and tuned trigger, the $1000+ gun is well worth the extra cash. I own a number of each but believe as price increases, the law of diminishing returns come more into play. They all go bang when you squeeze the trigger.
Skylerbone
Member
Ask yourself if you like what you get for the price.
The things you pay for are sometimes waiting quietly and patiently to save your hide when you need them most, even if that day of reckoning never comes. Air bags, ABS, a full-size spare tire, a concealed carry weapon, an alarm system, a survival shelter. You may never use any of the above but if lightening strikes, as the saying goes, "Luck favors the prepared man".
In regards to manufactured goods there are far too many variables to accurately determine what constitutes a products worth, especially to an individual. Do you care if slave labor was used? Is one steel better than another? Will the profits go back to Turkey/Brazil/China? Assuming snobbery or innumerable wealth doesn't make it so, likewise for assuming the purchaser is a savvy consumer who knew what he was buying. Assumption is never fact.
If you buy based on an assessment of wants and the product delivers sufficiently, then yes, you got what you paid for. If you paid for a horse and got a mule, then no.
The things you pay for are sometimes waiting quietly and patiently to save your hide when you need them most, even if that day of reckoning never comes. Air bags, ABS, a full-size spare tire, a concealed carry weapon, an alarm system, a survival shelter. You may never use any of the above but if lightening strikes, as the saying goes, "Luck favors the prepared man".
In regards to manufactured goods there are far too many variables to accurately determine what constitutes a products worth, especially to an individual. Do you care if slave labor was used? Is one steel better than another? Will the profits go back to Turkey/Brazil/China? Assuming snobbery or innumerable wealth doesn't make it so, likewise for assuming the purchaser is a savvy consumer who knew what he was buying. Assumption is never fact.
If you buy based on an assessment of wants and the product delivers sufficiently, then yes, you got what you paid for. If you paid for a horse and got a mule, then no.
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