Do you think having an "arsenal" could result in indefinite detainment?

[SUWANNEE MAN]

I would respond to those who say keep your nose clean and there will be no troublet that you apparently forget the ATF forms and background checks run on responsible citizens before "legally" purchasing a firearm.
What have you done to merit such investigation into your private purchases?
And to those I may refer to you as comrades instead of friends from now on, since apparently anything for the greater good of the state outwieghs individual liberties...

How is the gov't supposed to know who is a criminal and who is not with out a NICS check? If you have your CCP, you walk out the door within minutes... the wife beater/felon does not... Just how does that hurt you?

The ATF or whoever can check all they want... I have NOTHING to hide. I have nothing to fear. Neither should you. The reason to keep your nose clean and your conscience clear is to sleep well at night and have the right to vote, enjoy your 2A rights, and to not be in prison or on parole. Play it straight, play it clean, I'll bet you have no problem...

 

[SUWANNEE MAN]

Somehow, when I hear words like those, the names "Randy Weaver" and "David Koresh" pop into my mind.

Wasn't Randy involved in a white separatist movement? That is why he went to Idaho, a beautiful sate by the way, but he was a separatist that wanted to live "off the grid." No excuse for the execution of his family, a tragic event, but he did set that event in motion. When he said "... yeah, I guess I could saw off some barrels of some shotguns..." to and undercover Fed, he opened the door. Should it have been handled differently? YES! But he did put himself, and by default his family, in that situation

David Koresh is another sad example. He could have easily Avoided, Diffused, Escaped, Eluded, had he let Fed's in to see is weapons, which some of which were not legit. Shooting Federal Agents once they've identified themselves is not an excuse for self defense. He could have opened his doors, surrendered, and he and his many wives, children, child brides and babies could have all lived. Instead, he choose to live out his dooms day prophecy and bring about his own "end of world" self fullfilling prophecy. It's terrible, tragic and sad. He could have avoided it. So could have Janet Reno... She should have been prosecuted in her execution of the whole process.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Okay, apparently SUWANNEE MAN you never studied the Koresh or Weaver issue. (And man, I really don't want to sound like I'm defending either one).

Weaver was "off the grid." He was also living in stark poverty. The government agents entrapped him (as was proven in court. Same court that paid Weaver $2,000,000 in damages for the government murdering his son, his friend, and his wife as she held his infant daughter) because they wanted to get him to go undercover as an informant with a white supremacy organization. He refused, and that's when the government effectively became the mob.

As for Koresh, the government didn't declare themselves until after a raid began, opening fire on a house in rural Texas. If Koresh was in fact having relations with underage girls, we'll never know because the government killed those girls, and burned or "lost" the evidence. As for anything with other folks wives, it may be weird, but it's not illegal. And, all of this still ignores two very important things:

A.) They could have picked Koresh up in a trip into town.

B.) We don't know if there were illegal weapons or not. And as for the allegations of child abuse, it wasn't the responsibility of the ATF or the FBI, but of the Texas State Police, and DHS to handle.

The ATF (and the FBI to a lesser extent) wanted to justify their existence and expand their budgets. They didn't care who they had to kill.

And now, you are suggesting that these same murderers should be allowed to totally cast off the protections in the Bill of Rights as long as it's a terrorist?

Perhaps I should be more direct. What do you think President Obama would do with these powers?

 

[SUWANNEE MAN]

mordechaianiliewicz, all I'm saying is this: These men PUT themselves in those situations. The situations did not, I repeat DID NOT fall out of a clear blue sky. Each man made choices that lead up to his situation tragic as it was.

Back to the OP "Do you think having an "arsenal" could result in indefinite detainment?" - my answers is NO. You may have as many LEAGAL weapons as you want. And when you do, you have nothing to hide. I am not one who subscribes to the thought that it should be shouted from the rooftops, but shared with close, trusted friends.... Try to carefully and thoughtfully enlighten those more close minded to our 2A rights... But to rant on about the evil of our Gov't.... It plays right into the stereotypical depiction of what the anti's think of us; a bunch of 'gun nuts' crying about how the Gov't is going to try to take our favorite rifle/handgun/shotgun away.

When the Gov't makes a retro law that says "...all 'ye who have EBR's and semi-autos, class III's, NFA's, shall turn them in or else..." then I'm with you. Until then, keep you freaking nose clean. Don't put yourself or your family in a situation where pride or your purist sense of justice overpowers your will to survive and your ability to purchase another legal weapon of your choosing...

-SM

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Well, I see what you mean, but here's the thing. Weaver and Koresh were targetted because they were misfits. We don't actually know that Koresh did anything wrong, and now we can't. Weaver was acquited, and made a millionaire because of what was done to him.

Now, we have a guy (it looks like) who might enter office, thinking you and me, people that keep their noses clean are criminals because of our "arsenals."

You have to be willing to defend those you don't like from time to time to protect yourself.

You let these folks hang, and it won't be long before your the bad guy, and the worst case scenario happens.

Because I question the Iraq War, and think being a Muslim doesn't mean your a terrorist, and disagree with the Administration on civil liberties issues (well, trade, budget, etc. Let's say I have issues with this administration in general), there are people out there who would like me to go away. Who think I'm a traitor. Not many people. But some hot heads.

We must be carefully and harshly fight "arsenal" legislation. MUST. And we have to defend the "weird" guys out there, even if we don't like 'em.

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire.

 

[SUWANNEE MAN]

mordechaianiliewicz, so you don't like GWB, you don't support the war on terror, I guess you don't want your phone calls listened to, even though you probably have nothing to hide except your taste in books, and you dislike profiling of terrorists.... ok. You Sir are out in the open. Feel free to now prance about declaring such.

I'm not terrified of the next person in office. Either way we'll be fine less the tax hit if it goes the wrong way... but geesh.

And by:

You have to be willing to defend those you don't like from time to time to protect yourself.

... I do assume you mean by VOTING.... right? You sir have the last word, by all means, as this is spiraling into a political debate of which I neither have the time or interest in hashing out...

 

[neviander]

Our government is so ridiculously far from what the founding fathers intended, it is NOT funny....in the words of Forest Gump...That's all I have to say about that.

 

[Haemon]

I agree that this is straying away from firearms into the political arena...

BUT (and isn't there always a but)

I think that as conscientious citizens we need to be vigilant to any violations of our 2nd AND 4th AND 5th AND 6th amendment rights, regardless of who is or might be in charge of the federal government. We all know that people come to strange conclusions based on the ownership of many guns (or a few or even one). We know there are some horrible folks in our nation, and that's why we have trials, and juries, and prisons. I think we need to resist shortcuts past the due process provisions that are embodied in "indefinite detention" for the same reason we resist infringement on the 2nd amendment --
once you give up a freedom to the government, it might be a looong time before you get it back again, and before that time rolls around, your team might not be in charge anymore.

 

[John H]

mordechaianiliewicz, all I'm saying is this: These men PUT themselves in those situations. The situations did not, I repeat DID NOT fall out of a clear blue sky. Each man made choices that lead up to his situation tragic as it was.

Back to the OP "Do you think having an "arsenal" could result in indefinite detainment?" - my answers is NO. You may have as many LEAGAL weapons as you want. And when you do, you have nothing to hide. I am not one who subscribes to the thought that it should be shouted from the rooftops, but shared with close, trusted friends.... Try to carefully and thoughtfully enlighten those more close minded to our 2A rights... But to rant on about the evil of our Gov't.... It plays right into the stereotypical depiction of what the anti's think of us; a bunch of 'gun nuts' crying about how the Gov't is going to try to take our favorite rifle/handgun/shotgun away.

When the Gov't makes a retro law that says "...all 'ye who have EBR's and semi-autos, class III's, NFA's, shall turn them in or else..." then I'm with you. Until then, keep you freaking nose clean. Don't put yourself or your family in a situation where pride or your purist sense of justice overpowers your will to survive and your ability to purchase another legal weapon of your choosing...

-SM

Bull.

David Olofson.