Do you think the average gangbanger practices shooting?

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[Pb]

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/11/nyregion/11midtown.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

More sensationalism... This article is rediculous, but probably pretty harmless as far as the 2A situation in NYC. I am posting it here for a different reason: if you read the second page, you'll notice that one of the
main reasons the officer was able to escape without injury is that the suspect's MAC-10 jammed after only 2 rounds. Are these guns really just unreliable POS? I have seen so many news articals where the suspect's gun jammed part way through a gunfight, I'm starting to think that a lot of inner city armed criminals never even fire their "carry" weapons until they get into a shootout and have no idea how to use them. What do you think? I know there have been a lot of shootings committed by experienced operators, but I'm inclined to think that's not usually the case. :confused:

EDIT: I just noticed this was already posted.
 
I don't believe the average gangbanger has much range time under his belt. Their wrists would be way too sore from holding the gun sideways for extended periods of time....heh.
 
Of course not. They are usually not very good at anything. IMO they dont even maintain their weapons. No time or required discipline. Its a good thing too. Plus they are usually pretty dumb to begin with otherwise they'd have chose a different profession with better returns on investment.:neener:
 
even though it may not look like it the MAC-10 is actually a two-handed weapon...except in movies...and was designed to be used with a suppressor or a front strap to hold down the muzzle. it's an entry weapon, which has pretty much been replaced by the UZI
 
When I was in the military we had a lot of guys in that had come from gangs in the L.A. area. I always figured that if some of the guys with military training went back to the gangs things could get prety hairy for the cops
 
I seriously doubt gang members get a lot of quality range time.

Unfortunately I think a lot of law abiding citizens who carry for protection don't put in enough quality range time either or get at least a little handgun training.

As for gang members with guns I'm pretty sure most of them couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if they were standing ten feet away. I've watched a lot of videos of gang members holding up people with guns and in pretty much every video it looks like the criminal has about as much gun handling skill as perhaps a monkey would.
 
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I watch Gangland a lot on the History Channel... actually I'm watching it right now. (Volksfront episode) I always do find it strange when police say they have respond to (just giving an example) 300 shootings and 14 homicides. Makes me wonder if they even try and hit another person, or they just are terrible at aiming a weapon.
 
F.B.I. said:
I. NEW FINDINGS FROM FBI ABOUT COP ATTACKERS & THEIR WEAPONS

New findings on how offenders train with, carry and deploy the weapons they use to attack police officers have emerged in a just-published, 5-year study by the FBI.

Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:

––show signs of being armed that officers miss;

––have more experience using deadly force in "street combat" than their intended victims;

––practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;

––have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. "If you hesitate," one told the study's researchers, "you're dead. You have the instinct or you don't. If you don't, you're in trouble on the street...."

These and other weapons-related findings comprise one chapter in a 180-page research summary called "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers." The study is the third in a series of long investigations into fatal and nonfatal attacks on POs by the FBI team of Dr. Anthony Pinizzotto, clinical forensic psychologist, and Ed Davis, criminal investigative instructor, both with the Bureau's Behavioral Science Unit, and Charles Miller III, coordinator of the LEOs Killed and Assaulted program.

"Violent Encounters" also reports in detail on the personal characteristics of attacked officers and their assaulters, the role of perception in life-threatening confrontations, the myths of memory that can hamper OIS investigations, the suicide-by-cop phenomenon, current training issues, and other matters relevant to officer survival. (Force Science News and our strategic partner PoliceOne.com will be reporting on more findings from this landmark study in future transmissions.)

Commenting on the broad-based study, Dr. Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato, called it "very challenging and insightful––important work that only a handful of gifted and experienced researchers could accomplish."

From a pool of more than 800 incidents, the researchers selected 40, involving 43 offenders (13 of them admitted gangbangers-drug traffickers) and 50 officers, for in-depth exploration. They visited crime scenes and extensively interviewed surviving officers and attackers alike, most of the latter in prison.

Here are highlights of what they learned about weapon selection, familiarity, transport and use by criminals attempting to murder cops, a small portion of the overall research:

WEAPON CHOICE.

Predominately handguns were used in the assaults on officers and all but one were obtained illegally, usually in street transactions or in thefts. In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows. What was available "was the overriding factor in weapon choice," the report says. Only 1 offender hand-picked a particular gun "because he felt it would do the most damage to a human being."

Researcher Davis, in a presentation and discussion for the International Assn. of Chiefs of Police, noted that none of the attackers interviewed was "hindered by any law––federal, state or local––that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws."

FAMILIARITY.

Several of the offenders began regularly to carry weapons when they were 9 to 12 years old, although the average age was 17 when they first started packing "most of the time." Gang members especially started young.

Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% "regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year," the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and "street corners in known drug-trafficking areas."

One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers "go to the range two, three times a week [and] practice arms so they can hit anything."

In reality, victim officers in the study averaged just 14 hours of sidearm training and 2.5 qualifications per year. Only 6 of the 50 officers reported practicing regularly with handguns apart from what their department required, and that was mostly in competitive shooting. Overall, the offenders practiced more often than the officers they assaulted, and this "may have helped increase [their] marksmanship skills," the study says.

The offender quoted above about his practice motivation, for example, fired 12 rounds at an officer, striking him 3 times. The officer fired 7 rounds, all misses.

More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these "street combat veterans," all from "inner-city, drug-trafficking environments," had taken part in 5 or more "criminal firefight experiences" in their lifetime.

One reported that he was 14 when he was first shot on the street, "about 18 before a cop shot me." Another said getting shot was a pivotal experience "because I made up my mind no one was gonna shoot me again."

Again in contrast, only 8 of the 50 LEO victims had participated in a prior shooting; 1 had been involved in 2 previously, another in 3. Seven of the 8 had killed offenders.

CONCEALMENT.

The offenders said they most often hid guns on their person in the front waistband, with the groin area and the small of the back nearly tied for second place. Some occasionally gave their weapons to another person to carry, "most often a female companion." None regularly used a holster, and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

In motor vehicles, they most often kept their firearm readily available on their person, or, less often, under the seat. In residences, most stashed their weapon under a pillow, on a nightstand, under the mattress––somewhere within immediate reach while in bed.

Almost all carried when on the move and strong majorities did so when socializing, committing crimes or being at home. About one-third brought weapons with them to work. Interestingly, the offenders in this study more commonly admitted having guns under all these circumstances than did offenders interviewed in the researchers' earlier 2 surveys, conducted in the 1980s and '90s.

According to Davis, "Male offenders said time and time again that female officers tend to search them more thoroughly than male officers. In prison, most of the offenders were more afraid to carry contraband or weapons when a female CO was on duty."

On the street, however, both male and female officers too often regard female subjects "as less of a threat, assuming that they not going to have a gun," Davis said. In truth, the researchers concluded that more female offenders are armed today than 20 years ago––"not just female gang associates, but female offenders generally."

SHOOTING STYLE.

Twenty-six of the offenders [about 60%], including all of the street combat veterans, "claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights," the study says.

"They practice getting the gun out and using it," Davis explained. "They shoot for effect." Or as one of the offenders put it: "[W]e're not working with no marksmanship....We just putting it in your direction, you know....It don't matter...as long as it's gonna hit you...if it's up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever....Once I squeeze and you fall, then...if I want to execute you, then I could go from there."

HIT RATE.

More often than the officers they attacked, offenders delivered at least some rounds on target in their encounters. Nearly 70% of assailants were successful in that regard with handguns, compared to about 40% of the victim officers, the study found. (Efforts of offenders and officers to get on target were considered successful if any rounds struck, regardless of the number fired.)

Davis speculated that the offenders might have had an advantage because in all but 3 cases they fired first, usually catching the officer by surprise. Indeed, the report points out, "10 of the total victim officers had been wounded [and thus impaired] before they returned gunfire at their attackers."

MISSED CUES.

Officers would less likely be caught off guard by attackers if they were more observant of indicators of concealed weapons, the study concludes. These particularly include manners of dress, ways of moving and unconscious gestures often related to carrying.

"Officers should look for unnatural protrusions or bulges in the waist, back and crotch areas," the study says, and watch for "shirts that appear rippled or wavy on one side of the body while the fabric on the other side appears smooth." In warm weather, multilayered clothing inappropriate to the temperature may be a giveaway. On cold or rainy days, a subject's jacket hood may not be covering his head because it is being used to conceal a handgun.

Because they eschew holsters, offenders reported frequently touching a concealed gun with hands or arms "to assure themselves that it is still hidden, secure and accessible" and hasn't shifted. Such gestures are especially noticeable "whenever individuals change body positions, such as standing, sitting or exiting a vehicle." If they run, they may need to keep a constant grip on a hidden gun to control it.

Just as cops generally blade their body to make their sidearm less accessible, armed criminals "do the same in encounters with LEOs to ensure concealment and easy access."

An irony, Davis noted, is that officers who are assigned to look for concealed weapons, while working off-duty security at night clubs for instance, are often highly proficient at detecting them. "But then when they go back to the street without that specific assignment, they seem to 'turn off' that skill," and thus are startled––sometimes fatally––when a suspect suddenly produces a weapon and attacks.

MIND-SET.

Thirty-six of the 50 officers in the study had "experienced hazardous situations where they had the legal authority" to use deadly force "but chose not to shoot." They averaged 4 such prior incidents before the encounters that the researchers investigated. "It appeared clear that none of these officers were willing to use deadly force against an offender if other options were available," the researchers concluded.

The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team "did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don't hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant."

"Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms," the report states. "In fact, the street combat veterans survived by developing a shoot-first mentality.

"Officers never can assume that a criminal is unarmed until they have thoroughly searched the person and the surroundings themselves." Nor, in the interest of personal safety, can officers "let their guards down in any type of law enforcement situation."
.....
 
I was happy to see that somebody posted the study that I was looking for. They may not go to Frontisight but the majority of criminals are probably more familiar with carrying firearms than many believe. It is funny to make fun of them for shooting sideways but how many people have actually worked with a criminal element. Just because the movies show them holding a gun sideways does not mean that is how it actually is.
 
Oldskoolfan
Just because the movies show them holding a gun sideways does not mean that is how it actually is.

Agree 100%. It seems like "gangbangers" always get the "hold the gun sideways" stereotype and for the majority, it's highly inaccurate just as most other stereotypes are.

I grew up in a less than reputable area and I've seen a guy get shot a couple feet away from me. I've witnessed/heard more shootings than the average person should, and not once have I ever seen someone hold a gun sideways.
 
I seriously doubt gang members get a lot of quality range time.

Unfortunately I think a lot of law abiding citizens who carry for protection don't put in enough quality range time either or get at least a little handgun training.

As for gang members with guns I'm pretty sure most of them couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if they were standing ten feet away. I've watched a lot of videos of gang members holding up people with guns and in pretty much every video it looks like the criminal has about as much gun handling skill as perhaps a money would.

Judging by a few of these gunfights, it seems like a lot of criminals have just as unrealistic of expectations about guns as the Brady people do... just get something scary looking enough and you don't have to aim!

Apparently the shooter had a card on him when he died,

The police said a cryptic comment that referenced a 1985 martial-arts movie was written on the back of the card: “I just finished watching ‘The Last Dragon.’ I feel sorry for a cop if he think I’m getting into his paddy wagon.”

Some serious intellect on display here :rolleyes:


I was happy to see that somebody posted the study that I was looking for. They may not go to Frontisight but the majority of criminals are probably more familiar with carrying firearms than many believe. It is funny to make fun of them for shooting sideways but how many people have actually worked with a criminal element. Just because the movies show them holding a gun sideways does not mean that is how it actually is.


You may be right about this, but I doubt most people with real experience or brainpower would try to shoot a cop over an illegal vending stop.
 
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I would say that with the exception of former military gang members there is very little to no training at all for the average thug.

That being said, there have been a few instances in which former military members in gangs have killed several cops quite efficiently...
 
Plus they are usually pretty dumb to begin with otherwise they'd have chose a different profession with better returns on investment.

They may be dumb in that they probably won't really get anywhere in life or get tons of cash and live the "high life" (no pun intended) until the end of their days. But I've been quite impressed at how they can adapt to policing and stay under the radar with new scams/techniques until LE catches on.

As for gang members with guns I'm pretty sure most of them couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if they were standing ten feet away.

I disagree with this in that they are hitting broad sides of houses at 10-50 feet away during drive-by shootings. Sometimes they hit an intended target or a relative of the target and sometimes (probably more often) they only hit the house and the things inside, which is still terrorism/ attempted murder/ apply any other statute that applies. Even if they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 10ft, what's beyond the proverbial barn?

For the record I didn't take the time to read the article, but thanks to the OP for posting the question.
 
Thanks for posting the article. A disturbing read actually. The criminal has a few things going for him, or her. First of all they don't obey laws in general. From the point of getting a gun to how they use it. They are by definition bad guys. Unless it's an actual attempt to murder a specific individual they don't need accuracy. Many shootings are for intimidation... an act of terror if you will. If they hit someone all the better, but if they don't their message is clear enough. Most of these hoodlums are sociopaths, or psychopaths. With the exception of specifically chosen victims, such as police, other drug dealers, personal vendettas, or against other gangs random shootings aren't reported nearly as often as one might think. Thankfully Gang on gang violence over drugs and turf occupy a great deal of their time with selling drugs, or guns, auto theft and drugs. The more drugs and drug money are involved in the mix the more violent the gangs activities become.

Weather permitting I'm at the gun range weekly with a pistol and one of my rifles. I spend the day shooting. I seldom see police officers on the firing line unless they're practicing for qualifications. That's a crying shame. They of all people need the range time. The gangster's main advantage over Joe home guy is that they don't hesitate when the time comes to pull the trigger and there is no remorse in the act. A conscience hampers those of us on the other side of the law. We consider the consequences of our actions and they don't. If their shot misses and takes out someone's 6 year old so what? They got in the way. On our side of the equation we see the child which becomes a factor in whether, or not we pull the trigger.

I've never seen a gangbanger at the range holding their pistol sideways (and yes, there are some out there that come to the gun range to shoot. I say make sure officers are given proper firearms training and the time and ammo to practice at least every other week. Take some of the billions we throw at failed social programs and spend it on our law officers weapons training. That would be a great start. JMHO
 
Do you think the average gangbanger practices shooting?

I guarantee that the *average* gang banger doesn't practice. There are excpetions to every rule, but my years in patrol have convinced me that the average 3-year-old could out shoot the average gang banger.

As far as weapons maintenance is concerned, it would make most of the folks on this forum cringe. I've pulled guns off of suspects that were so poorly maintained that the slides had rusted to the receivers. I honestly doubt that half of these street thugs would even know what ammo to buy for the guns they are carrying.
 
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Great

First I would like to thank Reaper for the post. Usually I will get such articles from legal seminars, interoffice mail or other vocation sources. This is one I have not seen and found it to be interesting reading.

Next I would like to say I have been to private indoor firing ranges and watched the gangbangers practice. Their style is not quality, they are not accurate but think they are and they usually do not do drugs. Gangbangers sell drugs for the large amount of profit and then use the vast amounts of money for many things including houses, cars and other high price items.

Gangbangers practice but they are practicing standing still and shooting at stationary targets. On the streets, they shoot while running (or riding) away from their intended targets that are also running away from the shooters.

Several years ago I worked a shooting in which the intended victim ran across the road in front of the van that carried the shooters. The shooter in the van handed the gun to a member on the right side of the van and commanded him to shoot. The gangbanger began shooting and the victim once again ran across the road in front of the van. The shooter continued firing from the rear seat. He got the windshield, the driver and the passenger on the left side of the van but he missed the intended victim entirely.
 
I was with my friend who is a retired Atlanta officer when we passed a gun range. I asked him if the gang bangers went to the range. He said no and they prefer high cap pistols because they just spray and pray.

I was at a gun range and a young dude shows up with a nice plastic fantastic. He got one of the big full size targets and ran it all back to 25 yards. I saw him fumbling with it. Couldn't figure out how to rack it or take the safety off or something. i.e. never shot it or anything before. I helped him get it going. He immediately did the proper sideways grip and let rapid rip a full magazine of 17 which got him evicted. Sooo funny when the target came back there was ONE hole at the very right bottom that wasn't on the silhouette part.

On a related note a lot of SHTF and TEOTWAWKI scenarios assume the gangs would rule the streets. I bet folks that fit the profile of the highroad would take it from them fairly easily.
 
I. NEW FINDINGS FROM FBI ABOUT COP ATTACKERS & THEIR WEAPONS

New findings on how offenders train with, carry and deploy the weapons they use to attack police officers have emerged in a just-published, 5-year study by the FBI.

Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:

––show signs of being armed that officers miss;

––have more experience using deadly force in "street combat" than their intended victims;

––practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;

––have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. "If you hesitate," one told the study's researchers, "you're dead. You have the instinct or you don't. If you don't, you're in trouble on the street...."
Do keep in mind that the set of criminals who actually shoot police officers is not the "average gangbanger", but rather the most dangerous tail of the bell curve. It is likely that the average gang member doesn't get much range time, but the really dangerous ones probably do.
 
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