Does 2nd Amendment Apply to EVERY Weapon?

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I ask this out of genuine curiosity; I've never before run into anyone who believes that the Constitution recognizes an individual right to procure any sort of weapon with absolutely no limitations. If I'm understanding your responses correctly, there are no circumstances under which a government should be able to limit an individual's ability to obtain any sort of weapon, even if it's something that could cause mass casualties. Is that correct, or do I misunderstand what some of you are urging?

You have now...

The 2nd amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms, not necessarily employ them. As Ohio Gun Guy posted
Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American... [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.p

Now MLJDeckard does raise a good point on the specific wording (arms vs. ordnance) I'm not so convinced on the separation however, ordnance factories produce both arms and ordnance we also know that at that time there was no restriction on owning cannon.

According to Websters
Ordnance
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ordinaunce, from Anglo-French ordenance disposition, preparation, military provisions — more at ordinance
Date: 14th century
1 a : military supplies including weapons, ammunition, combat vehicles, and maintenance tools and equipment b : a service of the army charged with the procuring, distributing, and safekeeping of ordnance
2 : cannon, artillery

However as I mentioned we do have intent and purpose from those that framed the 2nd amendment. Perhaps we should not be asking whether civilians should have these weapons of mass casualties, we should ask whether the framers would have intended to employ them in a permanent standing army.

It's an equally valid perspective. Considering that the framers never originally intended there to be a permanent standing army COTUS Article I section 8 "To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;" so by inference either after 2 years the armies would be unfunded, or disbanded. The civilian defenders would need to initially need to meet force on force with either a privately armed and funded unit, or foreign invaders while armies could be raised. It would make sense that the weaponry available to those defenders would match or exceed the invaders, or mercenaries this is also represented in COTUS Article 1 section 8 "To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;"

My $0.02 FWIW
 
by Mister Mike Let's suppose a group of guys in Carbondale pooled their money, or got some donations from others, and decided that they would procure a some mortars. Is that okay? How about if we step it up to a suitcase nuke? Yes or no? In your view is there any limit to what sorts of weapons private individuals should be able to own?

I ask this out of genuine curiosity; I've never before run into anyone who believes that the Constitution recognizes an individual right to procure any sort of weapon with absolutely no limitations. If I'm understanding your responses correctly, there are no circumstances under which a government should be able to limit an individual's ability to obtain any sort of weapon, even if it's something that could cause mass casualties. Is that correct, or do I misunderstand what some of you are urging?
First off the constitution states "the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." not "any weapon known to mankind". Though I wouldn't mind firing a 155mm howitzer or the 16" guns on the USS Missouri. :)

And yes you are misunderstanding a whole lot....intentionally?

The first and foremost reason for the 2A is to keep an unruly,overbearing,tyrannical government under control.
However they have made it against the law/constitution to do so.
Voting doesn't work any more, cause they're all the same in varing degrees. :fire:
 
"Arms" = "Small arms" that are physically able to be born, housed and operated by a single person. This rules out larger crew-served weapons and WMD's. I don't view the Second as entitling people to form armed militias without governmental authority. Militias, both organized and unorganized, are a creature of statute and law. If we view the RKBA as an individual right, then we would need to decide whether that right extended to forming private armies. If it does, then larger weapons would be possible. But I doubt it would ever be extended so far.
 
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Either way, your position is untenable, as it is simply not based upon any known rational logic...

I'll have to go along with that, but I'd choose to address it in a bit more civil manner.
I like to try to give the benefit of the doubt if at all possible.

Maybe bushmaster just doesn't understand the role of the submachinegun, and how it's used...at least used by anybody who does understand its niche and how to deploy it.

The short coupled SMG is a frighteningly efficient weapon for close quarters situations such as house clearing and sudden, unexpected encounters with enemy combatants at conversational distances, especially in dense cover...like a jungle. Is role is not to "spray bullets" but rather to place multiple hits on selected targets in short bursts without having to pull the trigger for each shot.

Spraying on unrelenting full auto is mostly a ticket across the street when one is cut off and up to his rump in rattlesnakes and has a pressing need to rejoin the main body of his unit. Tends to make'em button down and lose some of their ability to get their sights on him.

The SMG is also a good arm for mortar and tank crews, being shorter and handier in close confines. Better than a pistol when a rifle isn't at hand, even though it strikes the same blow.

So, rather than rant at him, let us contribute to his continuing education on the role and proper use of smallarms.
 
Gungnir--

Thanks. That's a very thoughtful answer. Recognizing that this sounds a lot like the anti-RKBA crowd's argument against any weapon post-dating the American revolution, I have to ask whether the concept of the fundamental human right to keep and bear arms can be viewed as expansively in the 21st century as it could have been in the 18th century, when the Constitution was drafted. The reality of the modern world is that the arms available to mankind now include weapons that have the capability to inflict death on a scale that was unimaginable until the advent of the twentieth century. Since that time mankind has figured out how to produce chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons that can inflict death upon thousands in one fell swoop.

I view the moral right to kep and bear arms pretty expansively, certainly well beyond that permitted under current interpretations of the Constitution, but I have a hard time accepting that in 2010 it can be absolute. This is one area where it seems that the expanse of a fundamental right sometimes has to adapt to circumstances beyond the possible comprehension of those who drafted the Constitution.

To accept that there is no limit on the right to keep and bear arms, you must accept that anyone with the cunning to obtain a WMD should be accorded that right. If you disagree with that, then you need to arrive at a definition of the RKBA that is somehow justifiable.
 
Just for shiggles, let's assume the SCOTUS drops a lot of acid and decides that the 2A does include daisy cutters, chemical weapons, and nukes. How does this work out in reality as far as making the US a better and freer place to live?
 
Gungnir--

Thanks. That's a very thoughtful answer. Recognizing that this sounds a lot like the anti-RKBA crowd's argument against any weapon post-dating the American revolution, I have to ask whether the concept of the fundamental human right to keep and bear arms can be viewed as expansively in the 21st century as it could have been in the 18th century, when the Constitution was drafted. The reality of the modern world is that the arms available to mankind now include weapons that have the capability to inflict death on a scale that was unimaginable until the advent of the twentieth century. Since that time mankind has figured out how to produce chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons that can inflict death upon thousands in one fell swoop.

I view the moral right to kep and bear arms pretty expansively, certainly well beyond that permitted under current interpretations of the Constitution, but I have a hard time accepting that in 2010 it can be absolute. This is one area where it seems that the expanse of a fundamental right sometimes has to adapt to circumstances beyond the possible comprehension of those who drafted the Constitution.

To accept that there is no limit on the right to keep and bear arms, you must accept that anyone with the cunning to obtain a WMD should be accorded that right. If you disagree with that, then you need to arrive at a definition of the RKBA that is somehow justifiable.
You make the assumption that those with enough determination, power, money and cunning do not already possess such weapons. I don't believe that for an instant. We know Drug Cartels hire fighter aircraft and pilots for defense, own tanks and APC's and have various other heavy weaponry.

As far as chemical and biological weapons are concerned they've been in use for centuries, from poisoning wells, to lobbing animal carcasses over walls. Even in the US, using smallpox infected blankets passed to native Americans. Nuclear is slightly different, but in all essence it was developed as a really big bomb, fallout is an unintended side effect, in all but neutron bombs. All of these are indiscriminate and target both combatants and non-combatants alike that are within the radius of effect.

Now since the introduction of real artillery, for instance cannon firing canister. It's been responsible for a growing percentage of deaths on the battlefield. This was available at the time of the American Revolution, so it id reasonable to assume that people smart enough to draft up a document that has in the main weathered 300 years of infringement, would be able to foresee the development of artillery. Yet they stayed their hand when writing the constitution, and did not exclude anything from the definition of arms; or qualify arms to mean small arms.

Back to Websters...
arm
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English armes (plural) weapons, from Anglo-French, from Latin arma
Date: 13th century
1 a : a means (as a weapon) of offense or defense; especially : firearm b : a combat branch (as of an army) c : an organized branch of national defense (as the navy)
2 plural a : the hereditary heraldic devices of a family b : heraldic devices adopted by a government
3 plural a : active hostilities : warfare <a call to arms> b : military service
— up in arms : aroused and ready to undertake a fight or conflict <voters up in arms over the proposed law>

So definition 1a is the most likely candidate, so lets look at firearm... since it's "most often"

fire·arm
Function: noun
Date: 1646
a weapon from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder —usually used of small arms

Now look at the date... 1646, hmm, now in 1789 the framers of the 2nd would quite rightly have known the word firearm, yet chose not to use it. They used arms specifically, now it could be argued that by choosing arms it included personal arms like swords, tomahawks, knives, but then wouldn't we be discussing the right to bear personal arms. No in all honesty I think the framers of the 2nd meant ALL arms, henceforth and that are used in armies.

Now sure we can argue whether that's smart, but the problem is self limiting anyway, an M1 Abrams costs about $6.25M A LAW costs $1100 for a single shot a 155mm Howitzer is $500k for the gun and for an M795 round it's $333 unit cost and a Mk 82 iron bomb is about $300 unit cost this is the price that the Military pays. So not many people are going to buy these things anyway even if it's not prohibited. I mean a 50 BMG by comparison is a piddly little $2k+ for a rifle and about $3 per round, and how many here have them...?
 
I always employ the common law definition of arms enunciated by Sir Edward Cook in A Commentary on Littleton, circa 1628. That definitions was "Anything a man wears or takes in his hands to stirke out or defend against another."

The first part of the definition limits the scope of the topic to single man portable weapons. The second part of the definition limits the topic to weapons which are usually employed in man on man combat.... which would, in my mind, exclude area weapons such as grenades or hand held missles
 
I always employ the common law definition of arms enunciated by Sir Edward Cook in A Commentary on Littleton, circa 1628. That definitions was "Anything a man wears or takes in his hands to stirke out or defend against another."

The first part of the definition limits the scope of the topic to single man portable weapons. The second part of the definition limits the topic to weapons which are usually employed in man on man combat.... which would, in my mind, exclude area weapons such as grenades or hand held missles
Man on man combat routinely involves the tossing of hand grenades, and the launching of rockets & mortar rounds, it's what a man can carry into battle that meets the definition...
 
You're dodging the question. Why would you find it desirable to be able to buy a nuke free from legal interference?
I didn't think that I had I thought I'd answered, I especially liked your avoidance of the term "need", nice syntactic touch ;).

I don't especially want to own a nuke, I might want some C4 for personal use without having to jump through hoops, or legally cook up some AMFO without jumping through permitting hell. I have a 4' diameter tree stump sitting on my entryway that I have to drive around that I'm debating whether to get a blasting company to remove, or just fill in the forms and do it myself and have another visit from the BATFE, all I need is a title III firearm and I'll have the ATF living at my place. However back on track having someone say it's illegal, when in all likelihood the people with the means and the will to get nukes or any other highly dangerous weapon have them is stupid.

By the same token it follows the "if all guns are illegal then only criminals will have guns". There's no real constitutional basis for elimination of ownership of weapons that are used in the military, from civilian hands, none whatsoever however as I mentioned earlier there is a constitutional basis for elimination of the Military. Before 1968 I don't think there was firearm legislation passed that mentioned the infamous "sporting use" now we all kind of agree that it applies to this and not that. Which actually isn't pertinent, what is pertinent is what was the intent, and what was the purpose, we do know too and I don't feel the need to repeat it. Problem is when you start saying you agree you shouldn't own a Bazooka, in a few years it'll be a full auto, and a few years later an Assault rifle.

My opinion fwiw.
 
Man on man combat routinely involves the tossing of hand grenades, and the launching of rockets & mortar rounds, it's what a man can carry into battle that meets the definition...

Agreed, but the purpose is to totally neutralize the area in which the man may be lurking. As such, it is an area weapon and not a man on man combat weapon.
 
Problem is when you start saying you agree you shouldn't own a Bazooka, in a few years it'll be a full auto, and a few years later an Assault rifle.

Well put Gungnir. It makes me sad to here 2A supporters saying we don't need such things as rpgs and automatic weapons. Without civilians being able to own weapons equal to that of the military how can we have the SECURITY of a FREE STATE. Our military has tanks, air craft carriers, and F14s but we can't even own a full auto or a SBR much less a hand grenade or an rpg.
 
I still have not heard why the Constitution protects the right of an individual who has an M-16 to also have an UZI.

If you are armed in a meaningful way that would enable you to take out multiple threats across the room and at 300 yards your right to keep and bear arms is not being infringed if the Government should decide that it does not want you to have an UZI.

I had been concerned that the Supreme Court would find a right to keep a long gun but not a right to keep a handgun. Thankfully, they were convinced that some people actually needed handguns in order to be able to exercise the RTKBA. I have not heard a similarly strong reason as to why anyone needs an UZI.

Note, the SMG is much more concealable than the M-16 and the right to ban concealed weapons has coexisted with the right to keep and bear arms for centuries.
 
I still have not heard why the Constitution protects the right of an individual who has an M-16 to also have an UZI.

If you are armed in a meaningful way that would enable you to take out multiple threats across the room and at 300 yards your right to keep and bear arms is not being infringed if the Government should decide that it does not want you to have an UZI.

I had been concerned that the Supreme Court would find a right to keep a long gun but not a right to keep a handgun. Thankfully, they were convinced that some people actually needed handguns in order to be able to exercise the RTKBA. I have not heard a similarly strong reason as to why anyone needs an UZI.

Note, the SMG is much more concealable than the M-16 and the right to ban concealed weapons has coexisted with the right to keep and bear arms for centuries.
Then you've not been paying attention, your question is an oxymoron that I have already addressed in as much detail as your "distinction" is worthy of...
 
Without civilians being able to own weapons equal to that of the military how can we have the SECURITY of a FREE STATE. Our military has tanks, air craft carriers, and F14s but we can't even own a full auto or a SBR much less a hand grenade or an rpg.

How many aircraft carriers can you afford? Fighter jets? Nukes? You are aware, of course, that the cost of maintaining these things is as astronomical as the price of purchasing them. Plus, things like AFV's and aircraft carriers are crewed. Training those crews and maintaining their skills is no cheap endeavor (plus it puts wear and tear on your aircraft carrier). Fist shaking and ranting about private ownership of these things being necessary to FREE STATE strikes me as pointless in the extreme. Especially when we could concern ourselves with the reality of there being places here in the US where some citizens can't own so much as a .38 special revolver. When things like that are past history, I'll consider worrying about your right to own an anthrax-spraying nuclear-powered flying tank.
 
Just because it is an arm does not mean it is needed to be able to bear arms.

The Constitution protects the right to freedom of speech but I do not have the right to scream in your ear even though that is a type of speech. And content can be regulated as well in the form of court actions for libel, slander and copyright infringement.

It would clearly be Constitutional to ban guns that had a propensity to blow up in the user's hands, injuring him and his fellow shooters.

The government could also ban the import of certain guns to protect domestic manufacturers. You do not have a right to either a Norinco or an H&K.

The Constitution protects the right to be armed.
 
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Limited by whom? The government? Who are they? Any power it (the government) exerts is power that we have, and then volunteer to surrender. Government has no power that has not been surrendered by the people. By limiting the 2nd amendment, we are saying WE cannot be trusted, so WE should do something about it, and that WE should appoint Governers to keep US from having access to whatever WE think WE cannot be trusted to have.

Our founders realized that WE are far more trustworthy as individuals than the state. Weapons of any kind are in better hands when those hands believe in freedom, not oppression.
 
I have not heard a similarly strong reason as to why anyone needs an UZI.

What does "need" have to do with the question? When we start applying "need" to the ability to own something...from an Uzi to a motorcycle...we start treading on a very slippery slope. That smacks of Soviet Russia. "So, comrade...Why do you need more than three loaves of bread per week?"

Well...as to that...we don't "need" ice cream or crab legs, either. Neither do we "need" more than one TV set in the house and we don't "need" 4WD vehicles in Florida. The question isn't whether or not we need it, but rather why should we be forbidden to have it if we want it.

I don't own an Uzi, or even an AR-15. I have no real interest in such arms, but if you want one and you have the money to buy it...who the hell am I to question it? That's a pretty arrogant stance...demanding to know why someone else "needs" something based on your own idealisms. I don't want one...but if I decide tomorrow that I do...I'll go and buy one.

And why would I care to present a reason...strong or weak...to you or anybody else for owning something that doesn't cost you anything or infringe on your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Slippery slope, sir. Treacherously so.
 
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