Does 2nd Amendment Apply to EVERY Weapon?

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Remember, we are talking about the proper way to construe the scope of the right protected by the 2nd Amendment.

"Need" is very much a part of the 2nd Amendment because the right is defined by the purpose. The purpose is to be armed. The right is to possess weapons in order to be armed. The protected right is not to keep and bear certain weapons.
I do not think the 2nd Amendment protects the right to keep weapons for the fun of collecting neat and cool guns. So,for example, I think the government could ban shotguns with Damascus barrels out of a concern for public safety.
 
The last guy to try that idea in real life is unfortunately still rotting behind bars. In addition he has forfeited his right to own even a crappy gun.
 
Anything above small arms and simple weapons (mortars, rockets, and grenades) and you rally have to start investing money in order to keep up in the arms race.
Now I am just pulling things out of my head here, but I want to say that State National Guard units were mostly infantry units due to budgetary constraints. I want to also say that it was some time after WWI and Guard units started a Federalization process of which they then started receiving Federal funding. When they were finally able to diversify their forces into Armor, Artillery, and such.
It's also easier to have State (public) control over such resources as to simplify and streamline their implementation. It would also spread the budgetary burden for the cost of maintenance and training. It would be an odd situation if the gov't decided to sell you... a 155mm howitzer under the caveat of you having to fire at least 1,000 rounds a year. Sure it would be fun for a while, but then it would just become something else to look after. I don't know how much a 155 round would cost, or what the range fees would be, but needless to say: If the gov't decided to privatize our armed forces; it would become a disjointed mess... much like this thought. Good night all, I will try and refine this in the morning.
 
Just because it is an arm does not mean it is needed to be able to bear arms.

The Constitution protects the right to freedom of speech but I do not have the right to scream in your ear even though that is a type of speech.

Moreover, it would clearly be Constitutional to ban guns that had a propensity to blow up in the user's hands, injuring him and his fellow shooters.

The government could also ban the import of certain guns to protect domestic manufacturers. You do not have a right to either a Norinco or an H&K.

Ok one last time, and then I'm done...

Firstly you did read the intended use of an Uzi, that was posted earlier, I assume.

Ok so why do you NEED an M16... you most likely won't in your lifetime. Why do you NEED a handgun... same deal. You may argue you NEED them for defense, suppose we took the approach that indeed you may, however if after 10 years you cannot provide evidence that they have been used in defense by way of a police report we can safely assume that you're not at risk and thus no longer need them for defense. After that you can only own a 22LR. There ya go... I mean I didn't eliminate your 2nd amendment rights, you only needed those weapons for defense which patently you over estimated the risk of.

By taking the approach you suggest, then the government could issue an approved list of firearms, it would not impact your second amendment rights, it would undercut the purpose of the 2nd amendment however. The same could be said about cars too, you don't need a Ferrari, or even a stationwagon if you don't have a business or kids.

By placing arbitrary and ill defined restraints on a right you eliminate the right it becomes a privilege. For instance you use yelling in someone's ear impacts your 1st amendment right, what you say will not get you prosecuted, if you injure the person for instance rupture their eardrum you could be prosecuted for most likely assault it's a right to free speech, not a right to yelling in someone's ear. However is banning handguns legal, no, DC vs Heller, but not allowing someone to shoot off a full mag for the hell of it in public, that too is illegal and will get you prosecuted it's a right to keep and bear arms, not a right to shoot up the local mall.

Free speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom to assemble and petition your government and to bear arms. Are all recognized as natural rights. Suppose legislation was passed that only allowed assembly on every other Thursday. It's no longer a right, you now have the privilege of assembly on every other Thursday. By being a natural right, you can do it any time with anything you want, your dime your choice. As long as it doesn't come into conflict with others rights.

As to Uzi's any SMG (with full auto capability) makes an excellent home defense weapon, it's short, easy to handle and quick moving, low recoil and accurate enough at the range needed, and with burst fire more than able to deal with multiple threats, which is why it's the weapon of choice of most SF doing house clearance. I'd argue that for most self defense purposes you're likely to run across as a civilian that an SMG like the Uzi would be the weapon of choice over an M16 or an M4, of course it's not in common use due to the Hughes amendment, so people are using handguns, M4gerys and AR15's instead. However eliminate burst or full auto and an SMG is most often an oversized high capacity handgun.

Now as to banning specific items likely Manufacturer Model and variant because of bad manufacture, or imposing import restrictions. Both of these are within federal government scope, one for safety reasons, one for economic. However what the feds cannot do, is ban all firearms for safety reasons, or impose import restrictions while eliminating firearm manufacture in the US. Now HK you'd have an issue, since they have a manufacturing plant in the US, I don't know about Norinco.

Hope you got the information you wanted, because I won't be replying to you again.
 
There goes that "need" thing again.

Need" is very much a part of the 2nd Amendment because the right is defined by the purpose

Where does it say that? The 2nd Amendment states that we have to right to keep and bear arms. It doesn't say that we have the right to keep and bear sporting goods. it doesn't state that we have to right to keep and bear arms that are approved by the governing powers. Neither does the 2nd Amendment grant us the right to keep and bear arms. It recognizes that right and guarantees it. Beyond that, it doesn;t make any specifications.

And why the hangup on Uzis? Are you aware that any 18 year-old with a clean record and the cash in his hand can go buy a much nastier close-range weapon than any submachinegun? It's called a shotgun, and it's been one of the most feared close-quarters smallarms in history. So much so that the Germans filed grievance at the Hague over its use in WW1. In the midst of the awful carnage dealt out by the crew-served machinegun and poison gas, they were cryin' in their lager over the Model 97 Winchester shotgun.
 
^ The constitution & bill of rights does not grant me any rights. It tells governement that is it not within thier authority. That authority is delegated to the PEOPLE.

If you really think I dont have a right to my guns, just try....:fire:

It's not a government issued right, its a God given one, that they are forbidden to infringe. Therefore the default is the fredom, not the slackening of rules. They dont grant me anything!
 
Bushmaster...Now you've descended into a strawman argument, and you're starting to grasp at a few straws in an attempt to prove your point. That being that you feel that this gun is okay, but that gun isn't...and your base reasoning is mainly due to the fact that because you don't have a use for one, that nobody else should have one.

It falls into the switchblade mindset, and the illegality of same. Image. It looks scary, so therefore it must be bad. The hunting/camping knife has a sporting or utility use, so therefore it's not bad. Never mind that the stilettos that were responsible for the legislation probably wouldn't penetrate a heavy coat without snapping the blades off...and that the Bowie knife is capable of taking off an arm at the elbow. It's the fact that the switchblade looks like a weapon and the Bowie looks like a tool that matters. Image, and the gut reaction that it invokes in the uneducated and unaware.

Remember that funny scene in Crocodile Dundee?

"Puh! That's not a knife. Now that's a knife."

Again...A pump shotgun is a much more formidable weapon than an Uzi when used in the same venue.
Submachineguns fire pistol ammunition. The blow that they strike is the same. Spray and pray doesn't work well because there's more air out there than there is meat, and the country boy armed with a Model 94 Winchester facing the spray and pray adversary armed with an Uzi is going to let him run dry...put the sights on him...and kill him.
 
I believe the 2nd A when written they did not have just rifles and pistols in mind.

In my readings and understanding they wanted the citizens to be armed to fight off an army. We were going into a war with the largest army on earth. They also wanted the power to stay in the hands of The People and they said many times it meant arms to replace our government if it went bad and turned towards tyranny.

This would lead you to think that means arms the armies used.
Keep in mind I was taught this decades ago in school by WWII vets.
They were a bunch of tough cookies.

I do believe it means mortors, machine guns, stingers, tanks, LAW rockets and all the tools needed to fight an invading army.

I'm undecided on nukes as I'm not sure we could find a need to use them on any of the States soil.

By the way I own none of the things listed above but a rifle but with the taxes I pay I should be supplied with a nice SMG by the gov. I know thats not going to happen though.


BTW
You don't backtalk a science teacher who was in the 101st. The man could give you a stare that would steal your soul.
 
To cut to the heart of the OP's question about full auto weapons, yes.
You have to look at the intent of the 2A. It's not about target shooting, hunting, or even self defense unless were talking about defending oneself from the government. It's intention was to give the people the means to resist the government should it become necessary. Remember, we'd just broken away from the English Crown. This necessitates that the citizenry have access to the same individual weapons available to the government's soldiers.

As for the crew served weapons, we can take those if necessary. :D
 
Anything above small arms and simple weapons (mortars, rockets, and grenades) and you rally have to start investing money in order to keep up in the arms race.

It would be an odd situation if the gov't decided to sell you... a 155mm howitzer under the caveat of you having to fire at least 1,000 rounds a year. Sure it would be fun for a while, but then it would just become something else to look after. I don't know how much a 155 round would cost, or what the range fees would be...


You know you'd need to have the $200 tax stamp for not only the howitzer, but a stamp for each round of ammunition for it. That's where it gets expensive. :D:D:D
 
Alright, I realize this goes to dangerous territory ripe for being abused by liberals but I would say the 2nd amendment as it relates to what class of weapons it covers needs to be balanced with public safety.

At one end of the spectrum, imagine a guy in a subdivision with < 1 acre lots, keeping a .50 cal machine gun in his home with AP rounds. IMO, in that extreme case, his keeping of such weapons presents an unacceptable danger to his neighbors.

The danger of my argument is of course, I could try the same argument with the S&W 40 currently on my hip. If I put FMJ in it pointed it to my left and pulled the trigger, I would stand a chance of shooting through 2 homes. Which is also an argument I hear liberals making.

So, I would say, IMO, it does not cover every weapon and that the weapons ownership needs to be balanced with public safety in mind but VERY VERY carefully as it is a very slippery slope.
 
I obviously don't know for sure, so I can't offer a decent opinion but:

(1) The SCOTUS in Miller said firearms for military/militia use are ok, and

(2) The SCOTUS in Heller went further and said "in common use".

The courts will have to decide what weapons fall into those two categories IMHO.

It depends on the mindset the justice has going in on these decisions as to what they conclude fits into these parameters IMHO.

Their opionions will differ as much as any of ours IMHO!! :)
 
As far as I'm concerned, it applies to all arms that you can bear (as in carry). You want to own an rpg and an m79? You should be allowed to without any paperwork. Full auto/Burst? Sure. Claymores, landmines, and bricks of plastic explosives? Knock yourself out.
 
There was a point in time when the 2A meant cannon, warships, sea mines (called torpedoes) and a host of other weapons. Congress (in COTUS) is granted the power to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal. Just who did the FFs expect Congress to issue this letter to, if citizens did not possess the means with which to execute them? Privately owned warships helped win the Revolutionary war. Those privateers owned over 14,000 cannons, and were over 96% of the Continental Navy.

I think that the 2A included (at the time) warships, explosives (which were certainly in private use at the time), field pieces (many of which were in private hands), and other sundry methods of destruction. Expanding on this theme, modern artillery, rockets, aircraft, missiles, etc. would certainly fall into this category.

However, being that the stated reason for the 2A is the security of a free state, I do not see how WMDs can fulfill that purpose by making that same state uninhabitable to human life for many years.

The more important question that I think many so-called constitutional scholars miss, is not what limits the BOR place on government, but what powers are granted to the government by the rest of the COTUS. Show me where Congress has the power to prohibit arms under the enumerated powers without reading into the COTUS by expanding the meaning of a single phrase to mean whatever you want it to mean. (i.e. the commerce clause, or general welfare clause)
 
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This necessitates that the citizenry have access to the same individual weapons available to the government's soldiers.

That's an arguable point. As we've seen in Afghanistan, rag-tag bands of defenders can make life very hard for an occupier, and they do so mostly with rifles. They don't need heavy weapons to defend. Kind of how we beat the Brits, really.

For an invading army (or a tyrannical gov't) to occupy and secure hostile ground, they have to withstand sniper fire, hit-and-run attacks, etc., which add up over time. It is a mistake to think that citizens cannot defend themselves unless they are equally armed as soldiers. Soldiers tend to be armed to the degree that they can match or exceed another army. An armed citizenry isn't an army, per se, but it can form defensive militias on the fly.

Also, we as citizens have among our numbers chemists, engineers, and highly inventive individuals. We can manufacture our own cannon as needed, our own explosives, mines, mortars, etc. I've often thought about how strongly a typical American city could resist an invasion and I suspect that the number and quality of weapons we have would make occupation nearly impossible.
 
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The 2nd A restricts the government from making it a crime to exercise the God given right to be armed.

Other restrictions are not unconstitutional.

You have to set up more definite parameters for that statement to have any real meaning IMHO.

I believe military/militia use, coupled with "in common use", will be the parameters we will have to live with.

That said, what firearms will fit into those parameters? It doesn't matter what I think.........the courts will have to iron this one out. (Most likely the SCOTUS.)

For example, the NFA probably made fully automatic firearms not in common use. But, in any event, they are not in common use.............so...........the SCOTUS might very well say.........."not in common use"?
 
There was a point in time when the 2A meant cannon, warships, sea mines (called torpedoes) and a host of other weapons. Congress (in COTUS) is granted the power to issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal. Just who did the FFs expect Congress to issue this letter to, if citizens did not possess the means with which to execute them?

Interesting. Don Kilmer (attorney who represents the Nordyke Plaintiffs) uses that same passage to argue exactly the opposite.... to wit that private ownership of such items required special governmental permission.
 
Other restrictions are not unconstitutional.

That's the slippery slope. What is allowed today is forbidden tomorrow. Where do reasonable restrictions stop? When all we're "allowed" to have is single-shot .22 rifles?
At what point does it require a permit and off-premesis storage for that single-shot .22 rifle?

Shortly following the '94 AWB, I was greeted with a C-span image of Janet reno holding up a scoped Remington Sendero, stating that "America does not need sniper rifles!"

I predicted that. I just didn't think it would come so soon after the AWB.


If we allow a need-based requirement for being armed with a single-shot .22 rifle...with licensing and fees paid...that constitutes an infringement, even though it doesn't violate the letter of the 2nd Amendment. Politicians attempt to do end-runs around what they don't like all the time.

"Shall not be infringed." That's pretty clear. No?

Even the requirement for a pistol purchase permit is tehnically an infringement invoked for the stated purpose of preventing people with criminal records from being able to buy a gun. It hasn't stopped anything, any more than Prohibition stopped people from drinking...law-abiding or otherwise.

The notion of attempting to prevent Joe from having a given rifle or pistol because you don't like the gun...and that's a generalized "you" rather than a personal one...is an interesting peek into the liberal mindset.

Reasonable restrictions...whatever that means...have a nasty habit of changing and nibbling away at lawful entitlements...and Constitutionally guaranteed rights. Liberty isn't lost in one gulp. It disappears gradually, one bite at a time. Death from a thousand tiny cuts.

Bushmaster...I think that your main issue here is that you're uninformed. I suggest that you sign up for a machine gun shoot so that you can go and see firsthand just how difficult if is to be an effective killer with a hand-held full auto weapon. Its very narrow niche requires training and practice in order for you to deploy it effectively. In the hands of a slob shooter who thinks it constitutes a death ray, it's nearly useless, and anything that he hits is largely accidental. Really no more than a shotgun with extended range...the machinegun or submachinegun isn't a good weapon for the masses. Not if they intend to actually hit anything.

If I were to be presented with the choice between an Uzi and a bolt-action Springfield rifle to face an unschooled adversary armed with an Uzi at 75 yards distant...I would choose the rifle, and he would die before he got through the first magazine.

That suggests that we should restrict or ban centerfire rifles because they're so deadly efficient. Yes? No?

See how that "Reasonable Restriction" thing works?

Slippery slope.
 
For example, the NFA probably made fully automatic firearms not in common use. But, in any event, they are not in common use.............so...........the SCOTUS might very well say.........."not in common use"?

Agreed, a classic catch 22, which is why I am not pleased with the Heller formulation.
 
Good point 1911Tuner. Bushmaster is making generalizations for requirements, etc., that have to be defined with explicit parameters before they have any real meaning IMHO.

Make the parameters, then let the chips fall where they may. But, at least there is a framework with which to work with.

I believe the (1) military/militia use and (2) "in common use" parameters are pretty good and I can live with those FWIW.
 
Agreed, a classic catch 22, which is why I am not pleased with the Heller formulation.

I understand but I honestly believe the Miller and Heller formulations are how it will go down. It ain't perfect but it is acceptable to me. We have to have some definite formulation/parameters and nothing will be perfect IMHO.

But, what I think and one dollar will buy you a cup of coffee!! :D
 
1911

You seem to be making my point.

If the SMG is a niche weapon prohibiting it does not prevent a citizen from keepng and bearing arms.

And the shotgun is more effective anyways.

My point is that if citizens can be well armed without a concealable SMG it is not an ingringment of the RTKBA to prohibit the SMG.

Either way, God Bless America (we certainly need it) and thank you to all for the excellent posts which convinced me that the full auto rifle is most likely protected by the 2nd Amendment.
 
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